A Fight For Survival - Swing Shift (Free Bonus Episode)

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The following The episode discusses topics related to

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domestic violence, including detailed accounts and
descriptions that some listeners might find distressing or

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triggering. Listener discretion is advised.
Do we do that at the beginning of

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overtime? Oh yeah, okay,
Hi, and welcome to overtime. It's

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not called overtimes, called slingshift.
Hi, and welcome to you are swing

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Shift episode. Our most recent swingshift
episode for episode twenty two, part two,

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actually for episode twenty two parts one
and two. We have one overtime.

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We made that call. You're gonna
have to live with it. Although

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if you don't like that and you
want more overtime, please let us know

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right to us see at Sean at
Sinsonsurvivors dot com or John at Sinson Survivors

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doc. If you have praise,
please write to John at Sinsonsurvivors dot com.

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If you have complaints, please address
them to Sean. It's fine.

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That's so. That was three cases. We did three cases in two weeks,

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which is really interesting. Yep.
And we also have a possibly coming

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up in the next couple of weeks, an interview with a survivor who killed

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her abuser in self defense, which
I hope she's looking into whether or not

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she can be part of the podcast
because she wants to speak with her attorney

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first, which is completely understandable,
but I'm hoping that we can have her

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on for an interview. I think
the audience would love to hear from her,

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Yes, absolutely, and I would
too. I really want to hear

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her what she has to say.
Yeah, but this, but we covered

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three other cases over these two episodes, two in Vegas and one in Elco.

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Elco very small is a very small
place. Have you ever been to

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Alco? I have never been to
Elco, Me neither. I. In

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my research, I found that you
can fly to Elco into there. They

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have an airport. They have an
airport. They do. It's not a

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big airport, but you can fly
there. You can't fly direct from Las

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Vegas, though, you have to
fly through like Salt Lake, but Delta

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flies there. You can take a
flight from Salt Lake to Elco on Delta.

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Yeah, okay, weird. I'm
assuming that it's you know, not

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very Is it like an eight person
theater plane. It might be, might

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be like one of those prop planes, like a commuter plane. I'm not

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sure. But it's not cheap.
It's like six hundred bucks. It's probably

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cheaper to drive then. Yeah,
the seven hours, Yeah, it's cheaper

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to take less. You probably take
an uber there cheaper. It's probably less

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annoying too than having to transfer and
all that. Yeah, I think you

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transfer to Charles de Gaul. Oh, okay, convenience, it's not too

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bad. It's thirteen hours there at
thirteen hours back semidirect. But yeah,

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Elco is like the largest city in
even that area. As small as it

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is, I can't even call it
a city, but I mean that's where

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the largest within a few of the
counties, just in that part, that

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upper northeast part of Nevada. And
we definitely think of cities that are not

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Reno and Carson City, Las Vegas, Boulder City, and Henderson as rural

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Nevada, or at least I do. I think Elco probably qualifies as rural.

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I really wish I had looked up, like do they have a movie

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theater? Do I know they have
a casino? I know their big industry

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is gold mining. I know that
they I'm pretty sure that's what they're known

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for, like the gold that's the
gold mine cap Old, Nevada or something

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like that. I'm going to tell
you some statistics about Elko. Are you

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ready? I'm ready. Elko is
the one, five six seven eighth largest

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city in Nevada. Las Vegas is
largest, then Henderson, right, then

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Reno? Sure? Then are you
ready for this one? North Las Vegas?

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Okay, our listeners. Vegas is
smaller than Reno, smaller than Reno,

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not by much? Though. Is
this population population population twenty twenty?

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Okay? And oh no, I'm
sorry I sorted by oh yeah, population

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twenty twenty. Yeah. Then Sparks, Ah, Sparks. I didn't know

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Sparks had one hundred thousand people in
it. I didn't know that either.

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That's how many people live in Reno, Uh, Reno two hundred and sixty

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four thousand people and North Las Vegas
two hundred and sixty two thousand. Okay,

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yeah, Reno is larger than North
Las Vegas. Wow. So uh?

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And then after Sparks Carson City.
Sure, Carson City only has fifty

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eight thousand people. It's the seat
of government. Yes, that's embarrassing.

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We have that many people in our
a ya and they're walking around by our

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house today. Yes. And then
and then Fernley. Wow, okay,

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I've never heard of Fernley. I've
heard of Fernly. There was a case

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I almost covered today or out of
out of Fernley. It's a weird flex.

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Sorry, I was just okay.
And then Elco sure, and then

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Mesquite Mesquite, Yeah, I was
gonna say it has to be a Mosquite

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next. And then Boulder City.
What shush? Boulder City doesn't have lesson

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to those people, and it doesn't
fourteen thousand people in Boulder City, all

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right, that's shocking. If you
don't know. Bolder City is about thirty

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minutes away from Henderson. It's where
Boulder Dam is, the Hoover Dam.

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The difference is like there's no target
or Walmart in Boulder City, but you

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can easily drive into Las Vegas and
there's an international airport there. I mean

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you'd have to drive I don't know
how far you'd have to drive out of

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Elko to get to like a movie
theater or there's got to be a movie

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theater in aw I'm really curious.
I'm going to take that as an action

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item to look that up. I'm
sure it's charming too. They have mines.

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Their principal thing is mining. Mining
was big in Nevada, Silver,

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what other tin? What else?
Rhyo light Nice. Fallon comes after that

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with nine thousand people. We know
someone from Fallon. We Winnamacca Eely.

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So now we're like, this is
all very small, like anything beyond,

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anything smaller than Boulder City, Fallon
and beyond is definitely rural Nevada. I

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mean a lot of these things are
rural Nevada. Yeah, in Mesquite rural.

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I'm gonna say anything outside of even
north Las Vegas. Yeah, this

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is rural Nevada, not Carson City
or wash or Reno. Yeah not Reno.

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Well, Reno's the third largest,
so definitely not that. But yeah,

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yeah, we're talking like hundreds of
miles of desert in between these cities.

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Yeah, Nevada is huge and eighty
percent owned by the government, and

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there there's just little little parts that
are populated. Lots of ghost towns too.

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A lot of ghost towns are mining
towns popped up. And yes,

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you mentioned Violate. That is a
fun ghost town to visit. Yes,

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there's another one. That's the one
with the bottlehouse. I'm prety sure that's

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Riol that's right. Yeah, that's
fun. You can road trip up there

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and really check out some cool stuff
if you're ever in Nevada. That's like

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a fun run. It almost makes
me want us to like fly to Reno

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sometime and then do like a northern
Nevada like west to East like road trip

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or something. Oh, fly home
back out of Salt Lake. Maybe.

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Yeah, that'd be interesting because I've
never seen any of those cities up there.

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I mean, we've been to Tona
Pop, but I've never been to

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Fernley or whatever. I think,
what Dolse, you say, ballin Fernley?

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You've been up there? Alcho?
Yeah, that's crazy. That'd be

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fun. We did not expect to
talk about Elcho this much. No,

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I don't think the people in Elco
talk about Elko this much unless they use

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it in the context of like we
have to get out of Elco. I'm

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just kidding. I'm sure Alco is
lovely. I'm sure it is, and

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it probably appeals to people who like
small town life. Yeah, yeah,

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it looks perfectly nice. Yeah.
I don't know what the temperatures like up

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there. I did look that up
actually because I was curious too, But

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like high's high's on average in the
eighties and then low's in the twenties.

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Oh so not bad, not as
hard, and they have they have some

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hundred degree days and they have like
in July and August, but like on

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average it's kind of like readly cooler
and significantly colder. Yeah, yeah,

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that's appealing. All right. So
back to the cases. Okay, So

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we talked about how some of the
cases. One of the case, one

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of the the first case we covered, Tammy and David. Tammy David ended

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up in jail time. Yeah for
Tammy, which that one I thought was

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the one that had the strongest evidence, right, because she had all those

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injuries on her body. I mean
they were all self defense, we'll say

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up in front, definitely, yes, But hers was there was no question

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whatsoever that it was a self defense
case. No, I don't think so.

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There and every story she told or
the stories she told about what happened

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was completely consistent with all of the
physical evidence that was collected and the statements

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of her neighbors and her family about
what was going on. She had that

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awful injury to her head, thirteen
staples to close it. All of that,

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and she ended up taking a plea
deal, which still resulted in her

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being locked up for like four years. Right, they lived on like Boulder

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Highway. Yeah, which is I'm
going to say. I don't think it's

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controversial to say it is not the
nicest area in Las Vegas. Hi.

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00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:05.639
It's Sean and John from Sins and
Survivors. We think it's so important to

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bring you new podcast episodes centered on
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the scenes swing Shift episodes where we
talk about the episode right after we record

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it and tell you more about our
theories on the case, going beyond what

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every week. So head over to
sinspod dot co slash Patreon today. No,

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it's kind of like an older,
more distressed community part of Henderson,

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the older part of Henderson more where
we live plus affluent. Yeah, And

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they lived in like a small,
a very small apartment complex. I would

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call it. I think it's four
or five buildings, and then I think

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they're eight unit buildings, four on
the ground floor and then four on the

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second floor. I don't know how
any two people live in five hundred square

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feet together. I yeah. And
when we looked at pictures, because like

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you mentioned in the episode, when
we're going over the facts, and it's

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like push your down on the bed, on the couch, on the chair,

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found on the chair, found on
the futon, I was like,

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how do they have all this furniture
in this little house? And I think

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it was just the piece of furniture
that they were calling a couch. Was

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also a futon, which means it
could go flat to be a bed,

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and maybe it wasn't very large,
that's why the police called it a futon

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chair. So it just yeah,
we had to look at the pictures to

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see exactly how small. And it
was one of those apartments where they didn't

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even have a full size range.
They just have like a little, yeah,

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little a little like two burner stove, like an oven that you couldn't

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put a cookie sheet in. Like
very a very small, very modest apartment.

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Yes, yeah, and I wasn't
kidding. I lived in an apartment

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that small, but I would never
have lived with another person, like I

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mean, I really did like that
apartment in New York, even though it

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smelled like Chinese food literally all the
time. But I would never live there

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with another person. Yeah, something
about being an adult and having a bed

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that folds down out of the wall. I think. I don't know people

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in New York do that. I
don't want to. It's fine whatever.

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Space is space, yeah, and
I know people do what they can to

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get by, so I think,
but I think you're right that living in

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that small space meant there was nowhere
to go. There was nowhere to hide

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during the pandemic. Yeah, oh
wait was the pandemic? No, no,

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there were ten years but like or
whatever eight years before. But like

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even if they were fighting, it
sounded like she could go in a bedroom

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and close the door, right there
was there, go in the kitchen.

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Yeah, there was nowhere to go. So compare that to the second case,

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Catherine's case. Yep, Catherine and
Aaron. They lived in Summerland in

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a two story home with the garage. It initially looked like a small home

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to me. It was like that
the homes are like they're like a tube.

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It's like they're No, they're not
a lot wider than the two car

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garage in the front of the house, but there are two stories and they

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go back really far. So there's
living space on the garage level and also

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living space upstairs. So it was
like, for it's like a four bedroom

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I don't know how many square feet, but like not small, no,

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not small, And like you pointed
out, in a more affluent community,

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I'm going to go out on a
limb and say they have an h o

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A. They definitely have a community
there of neighbors who are outspoken. Yes,

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we talked about the letters they wrote. The one guy wrote a letter

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and he was like, I don't
really care. I don't believe she I

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don't believe it was self defense,
and I don't want her here. Yeah,

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a lot of empathy. Yeah,
And like compare that to the community

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where Tammy and David lived. Their
neighbors were well aware of the fighting that

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was going on. They but I'll
say, but they didn't seem to be

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taking any steps to have the police
come out there. They can really,

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that was not something they were interested
in having happened, or having her be

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evicted or them be evicted for causing
disturbances or being loud. I mean,

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their very own property manager knew that
he was violent toward her, and obviously

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you should never evict someone from your
property just because they're a victim of domestic

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violence. But it didn't sound like
there was complaints being made in the sense

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that anyone wanted them to leave.
Yeah, not at all. So they

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they were living in this community where
it was kind of like this open secret.

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This thing that was going on with
them was known to all of them,

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but they weren't. They didn't seem
to. While they cared about Tammy,

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I think the one neighbor showed that
he cared about her and you know,

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asked if she was okay that day. But they weren't all up in

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their business and they had really good
relationships. With both of them. It

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sounded like they would go over each
other's houses to chat and like say,

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oh, yeah, this happened last
night, or she did this to me,

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or bum cigarettes off each other.
It was like a much more cohesive

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and together community, even though there
was all this violence going on. But

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I feel like in Catherine and Aaron's
it was more of like a I don't

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want to say segregated, but sort
of like everyone's in their own little unit.

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They're not all communally living except when
this stuff happened, and then all

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of a sudden, everybody's going to
sign off on this letter. Yeah,

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in a petition with like twenty five
seconds, the people all around the neighborhood

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say they didn't want her there.
We also mentioned the I hate to say

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the drug angle, but I had
had a theory on that, and since

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we're in Swingshift, I'll just say
it real quick. Because she had been

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stamp Tammy had been stabbed in the
head like a week before she ended up

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killing him, and you know,
had like thirteen staples in her head.

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So it makes absolute sense to me
that when she went to the doctor,

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she was prescribed painkillers for the stab
wound in her head. And at the

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time, in twenty twelve, oxycodone
was the thing that you got for pain,

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and it was the opioid epidemic,
and it was definitely killing people and

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it was definitely way more addictive than
we knew. But it's not weird at

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all that she had that in her
house. There's a lot of people had

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that in their house. There was
an opioid epidemic in every state in the

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country. Yeah, and it didn't
matter what economic background you had, or

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what your profession was or any of
that. It was really common and,

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like you said, made widely available
to people, and a lot of families

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have suffered because of it. They've
lost people to overdose or are dealing with

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their addiction or them turning to more
hard street drugs. So it was the

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reason why I was hesitant to really
go into it in the episode was because

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in spite of all that, there's
still like a stigma, and I didn't

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want to attach that stigma to Tammy
and even though it was alleged that like

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David was maybe using drugs, like
his friend said he was, or a

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friend slash neighbor said that he was
using drugs because he is dead and he

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has a family, I didn't necessarily
feel the need to like pile that on

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or attach that stigma to him.
But it really shouldn't even be anything that's

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stigmatizing, right, So it just
was I hesitated to bring it up,

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but it felt like it was important
part of the story when you were reminding

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me that if he was using drugs, that could have made him to be

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more violent or more volatile at the
time, right. And if he was

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taking her drugs, taken her oxy, that stuff was really addictive, and

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it's possible that he got addicted and
then he just took her her oxy and

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wouldn't give them to her and she
needed him for her pain. Yeah,

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he was like abusing her via denying
her the medicanis really important thing that you

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pointed out that could have been true. Yeah, that's a thing. It's

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a theory. We get that it's
a theory, but it's it's sort of

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fits the fact. And yeah,
and then the last case, we were

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joking around about Elko. But that's
the only case that really went to trial.

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So Tammy took a plea and got
four years. Catherine took a plea,

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would have had served maybe five six
years, but she got a suspended

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sentence and basically just got probation for
four years. And then Brittany, I

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don't know if there was a plea
on the table and she denied it.

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I don't know that. But her
case actually went to trial, lasted two

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weeks. Good on her lawyer because
they brought home a verdict of not guilty

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because of her self defense. Yeah, it makes me wonder if Tammy could

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have gotten if she had gone to
trial, if she could have gotten not

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guilty. I wonder that too.
And I don't know if she took that

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plea because she was concerned about some
of the things that might have come out

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during trial, or if she just
wanted it to be over with and move

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past it. Yeah, And obviously
I don't know. But we can't ignore

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the fact that Tammy is Latina,
Catherine and Brittany are white, and there

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is systemic racism. There is there
just is in our justice system and a

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lot of our systems. So I
don't know if she was treated differently as

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a defendant, either because they suspected
her of drug use or be because of

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her race or her economic background the
neighborhood she lived in in Henderson, I

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don't know, but I still cringe
at that inequality that she was suffered,

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because, like you said, she
had the strongest, strongest evidence that she

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was being beaten on a regular basis, including a stab wound in her head,

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and she ended up serving four years
for fighting back. Yeah, that's

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horrible, all right, Anything else
you wanted to cover, No, I

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think I think research which one do
we research the most? I would say

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that we were equal in Tammy and
Catherine time. Yeah, we really dug

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into the court documents for those two. Yeah, we'd get any court documents

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for the one in Elco. No, But the Elko papers, the reporters

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had done a really wonderful job giving
a lot of detail about what was going

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on. Like you said, it
was the they had I think they had

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two murders the year prior, and
so it was kind of big news.

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There was a lot of drama and
like you know, courtroom drama around it.

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So I think it was covered really
well and extensively by the Elko Press,

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because I mean it's a small town
of twenty thousand people, and it

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was probably like on everyone's minds.
Everyone was chatting about it. They probably

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00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:22.119
probably were really interested where like in
Las Vegas, what are we pacing at

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00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:26.599
three or four murders a week?
Yeah, it was probably a huge news

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00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:33.119
there. Yeah. I think that
was a great Yeah. I think they

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00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:34.880
worked well together. Yeah, a
great thing. And I'm really hopeful of

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00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:41.160
to bring that that interview. Yeah
in a couple of weeks really happens.

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Okay, I guess we can wrap
it up. Do you want to say

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the thing? You all to say
the thing? Thank you for listening,

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00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:49.799
and thank you as always for supporting
the podcast. We really appreciate it and

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00:21:49.920 --> 00:22:04.400
we remind you what happens here happens
everywhere, even Elco, even Elco,

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00:22:02.119 --> 00:25:21.160
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research, written and produced by your
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