Dec. 16, 2025

Off Script: Pretend, Murder She Told & Sins and Survivors Spill the Tea

Off Script: Pretend, Murder She Told & Sins and Survivors Spill the Tea
Listen to "Off Script: Pretend, Murder She Told & Sins and Survivors Spill the Tea" on Spreaker.
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Season 3

Join hosts Javier from Pretend, Kristen Seavey from Murder She Told, and Shaun from Sins and Survivors for a special holiday crossover episode where three true crime podcasters let their guard down and talk shop.

Enjoy this conversation and be sure to check out the rest:

  • Jessie (Love Murder), Bob (Buried), Joshua (Somewhere in the Pines)
  • John (Sins & Survivors), Nina (Already Gone), Robin (The Trail Went Cold)
  • Patrick (True Crime Obsessed), Josh (True Crime Bullsh**), Eric (True Consequences)
  • Gillian (True Crime Obsessed), Alvin (Affirmative Murder), Lanie (True Crime Cases with Lanie)
  • Aaron (Generation Why), Lucy (Wine & Crime), Kristen (Murder, She Told)
  • Amanda (Wine & Crime), Josh (True Crime Bullsh**), Andie (Love Murder), Charlie (Crimelines)

https://sinspod.co/104
https://sinspod.co/104transcript

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WEBVTT

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To listen ad free visit simspod dot com slash subscribe

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starting at two ninety nine a month. You'll also get

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Hi everyone. For the month of December, some of our

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favorite true crime creators are getting together for conversations about podcasting,

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true crime and how it all comes together. I was

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invited to take part in a very special episode with

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Kristin Cevie of Murder She Told and Javier Leva of

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The Pretend Podcast to discuss how we create our shows,

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the cases that have gripped us, our hopes for twenty

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twenty six, our lives beyond true crime, and the joy

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our true crime community brings us. It was such an

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energizing and honest conversation that I found myself sharing some

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information about my plans for twenty twenty six that I

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have only shared with some of my closest friends. I'm

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grateful to Kristen and Javier for their support, friendship, and

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insight as creators. I hope this episode brightens your holiday

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season and gives you something meaningful as we head into

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the new year. When you're done listening, be sure to

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check out their shows at sinspod dot co slash Murder

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She Told and sinspod dot co slash Pretend. And with that,

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let's get into it.

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Hey, guys, it's me Howier. I'm the host of the

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Pretend podcast. So if you don't recognize my voice, that's

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because you're also listening to this on Murder she Told

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with Kristin or Sins and Survivors with Sean. Thank you

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so much, guys. This is my second year of doing

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this podcaster true crime podcaster cross collaboration during the holidays,

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and I'm so looking forward to this conversation same.

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I really enjoyed it last year. And because my show

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is so straightforward and serious and scripted, I feel like

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my audience doesn't really get to hear a lot of

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this kind of just conversation. So it's really fun.

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And I'm I'm new to podcasting and this is my

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first year doing this, so I'm glad that I get

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to show some of the other sides of my personality

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that people don't get to see in every episode.

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Yeah. So today, hey, we are simulcasting, right, So this

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episode is playing on all three feeds your assignment listeners

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is to check out all these shows because they're really excellent.

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And you know you love the show that you're listening to,

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but I guarantee you that you're gonna love the other

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shows too, So go check it out. But without further ado,

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let's let's get into it. What do you guys, Let's

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do it, let's task it.

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I was going to ask first if there was anything

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that really stuck out this year that I do you

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worked on?

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Well, Kristin, I have to plug what we worked on together. Christin.

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I were part of a presentation at the True Crime

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Podcast Festival about Everybody's you know, sexiest criminal alive, Luigi Mangioni.

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We we were with Amanda from Wine and Crime and

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we did sort of a panel discussion on what is

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with this obsession with Luigi and what does that say

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about our culture? And what do we think could happen

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if he's found guilty of the murder or could he

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possibly be found not guilty and then what could happen

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and how do we cover these cases where there's a

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lot of what was the word you use, Kristin to explain,

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like we people connect with Luigi's alleged motive or mission

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or purpose, the message he was trying to send with

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his actions, with the fact that someone was shot dead

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on the sidewalk of New York City, how do you

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balance those as a true crime podcaster when you're also

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trying to you know, be ethical and respect that this

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man had a family and those kinds of issues. So

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that was one of the I called it at TCPF.

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I called it kind of a full circle moment for

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me because Kristin was the first person that I talked

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to about possibly starting my own podcast, So it was

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like a chance for us to work together and that

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was a real highlight of the year for me.

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Yeah.

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No, that was awesome. And I remember you coming up

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to me and you know, shooting some ideas out and

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I just told you to go for it. And I

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think it's so cool that, like a couple of years later,

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you guys have a podcast that's successful and you're telling

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stories and you're helping people and you know, shedding light

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on domestic violence, and it's really cool to see to

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also have that little full circle moment with you and

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also talk about something that's like completely out of my

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comfort zone a little bit to talk about like in

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front of people, Like I can talk about advocacy and

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cold cases and you know, ethics and stuff all day,

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but it was a nice challenge to be able to

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talk about about something that I don't usually talk about

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on my show, Like I don't really talk about breaking cases.

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But you know, it's such a complicated situation because you

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have a victim who is not well liked, who a

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lot of people hate and have a you know, vengeance against.

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So how do you kind of balance? And then there's

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the other side, the people who are the victims of this,

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and I mean it could just keep going well, and.

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Then there's like the people who are attracted to him

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almost like yeah, like I saw today in the news

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he had a court hearing and all these women flocked

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into the courtroom. It's it's kind of crazy, you know,

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like how polarizing this that one topic is?

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Right? Okay, what about you, Javier, is there anything that

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you worked on this year or maybe that you're looking

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forward to next year?

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I have been working on a really cool case for

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months now that it is so explosive Because did you

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guys watch that documentary The High School Hoax? Yes? With

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the mom for spoilerler for the people who haven't watched it,

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the mom is the one stalking the daughter.

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Okay, I didn't watch it. I know what you're talking about.

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There's this one scene where you see the body cam

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footage of the cops like telling the daughter that your

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mom is your stalker. You know, it was such a

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big moment and I'm like, Wow, they really like up

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the anties with that one. And I'm working out a

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story that has a confession just like that, and it's

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super exciting. It was caught on camera the whole thing,

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like hours and hours of a confession, and I just

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can't wait to tell that story because it's almost like

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we're not telling a story in past tense. You're telling

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the story as it happens, as it's unfolding, and it's

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a big who done it? So I can't wait for

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you guys to listen to that one.

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That's fun. I'm definitely interested. So what do you think happened? Like,

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do you think the daughter knew? I try not to

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judge people's reactions because I just you never know in react. Yeah,

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but when I saw that, I was just like, I'm sorry,

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but like I said, I try not to do this,

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but it's hard not to put yourself in the daughter's shoes,

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like her mother literally ruined her life.

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I got to tell you, that stuck with me for

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a long time because her reaction. For those of you

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who haven't seen it, it's like, imagine you're being tormented

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for I don't know how long that happened, right like

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a couple of years. Years, and then somebody tells you

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what really happened, and it almost it was it was

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like it bounced right off of her, like she couldn't

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comprehend what the cop was telling her. In fact, the

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mom comes out after she learns that her mom was

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her tormentor, and she hugs her mom and like she

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you could tell that she still loves her mom, like

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that reality hadn't sunk in yet, And even in like

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the interviews afterwards, you could tell that it's just hard

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for her to comprehend that her mom would actually do

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that to her.

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Yeah, that was that was tough. I mean, she still

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supports her mom so like it's just a really complicated relationship.

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But I find the psychology of that really fascinating me too.

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I don't think I could. I couldn't be friends with

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my mom after that.

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Sean, I mean, we ruined it for you, but you

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got to watch them.

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Sorry, you have no no no.

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I had read about it or heard about it. I knew,

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I knew what the ending was like, it was spoiled

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for me before. But I wish I had more time

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to watch more stuff. Right, so every week something tarts

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out and I haven't seen any of it. But I

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was going to say, did they explain anything about what

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motivated her mom to do that? Does the daughter have

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a sense that her mom's in a really bad place

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mentally and maybe that makes her more empathetic?

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I don't know, Chris, do you remember because they actually

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interviewed the mom, which I thought they did.

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I think it kind of went light in that area

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like that. That was the weakest part was I wanted

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to know more about why, and she just kind of

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said which I didn't believe that. She said that someone

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else started the harassment and then start because her daughter

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started getting these really awful text messages from somebody that

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she didn't know, an unknown number, and then the mother

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like picked it up and continued it. I don't believe that,

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would I do why? And I think she just said

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like something like it just started spiraling and then it

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just kept going and it kept going, and then she

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just couldn't feel like she stopped. She could stop. But

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the things that she said were so so incredibly awful,

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like just talking about her daughter's body the way that

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she did, and oh it was it's a sick it's

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pretty gross.

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Also, it wasn't just the daughter, it was her boyfriend too.

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Other people too. Yeah, it's just I mean it went deep. Yeah, yeah,

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I don't. I don't think she really like gave an explanation.

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I think that she just, I don't know, tried to

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brush it off a little bit, as like it just

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spiraled out of control and she just didn't stop. And

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I think she also like kind of liked the attention too.

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I was going to say it made me think like

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Munchausen's syndrome by proxy or something like that.

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Yeah. I got that feeling too, that it was fun

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for her in a yeah, perverse way.

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You know, this is so weird.

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But you know what other documentary speaking of, like found

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footage in the true crime world. Oh what was it called?

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Oh the Perfect Name Neighbor.

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Oh gosh, I have not seen it, but it is

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on my list. We need to watch it because it

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looks really good.

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There's no narrator, it's all told through body cam footage,

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and it's just talk about like throwing the audience in

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the middle of the action. I mean that was yeah,

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really cool twist. Yeah. And that's the thing about these

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documentaries too, right, you have to wonder how it's made,

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what are we seeing, what are we not seeing? I know,

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I've been, I've had. I've done two documentaries so far.

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The first one was a Citizen PI for the first

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season of Criminal Conduct, which is my other podcast, and

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that was interesting because they took a case that we

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worked on and they gave us a lot of creative

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control in terms of they interviewed us thoroughly and I

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feel like like they got the story right. And then

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the second one was Don't Pick Up the Phone on Netflix.

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It was a three.

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That one was interesting.

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Yeah, that was a really good one. And that one

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I felt like I gave them a lot of content

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and contacts and stuff like that, and then in the

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end it was like a little out of my control,

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so I felt like I didn't have but you know,

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they did a good job telling the story. But it

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does make me an easy as a creator, I guess,

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call me a control freak, but I always if I

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want to be involved in one of these things, I

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want to I want to make sure that I'm telling

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the story the right way, that's fair, you know. Yeah.

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Well, and just because like people are interviewed in it,

226
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like family members, doesn't necessarily mean that it's being ethically

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produced too. I think that a lot of people watch

228
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documentaries and they'll just see, oh, someone's involved with that,

229
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so therefore it must be fine. But that's not always true.

230
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Yeah, And a lot of these documentaries don't pay the victims. No,

231
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I don't pay the contributors, you know, which is fine,

232
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I guess, but you know what I mean, Like a

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lot of people assume that there's a lot of money

234
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exchanging hands, but not really.

235
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Now, if they can get something for free, they will,

236
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Like I also work in the entertainment industry, and it's

237
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just like they it'll just be like exposure. We'll give

238
00:12:17.240 --> 00:12:20.399
you exposure and I'll light on your check. Credit, We'll

239
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give you a credit, I'll get your name on IMDb.

240
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Wow, exactly, it's so crazy. So Christen, what year did

241
00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:29.000
you start murder?

242
00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:32.919
She told, I started it in December of twenty twenty,

243
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so it's five years.

244
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I feel like that's when the podcast window kind of

245
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was closing, you know, like where prior to twenty twenty,

246
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everybody can have a podcast and get like a large audience.

247
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But then after the pandemic, it feels like everybody got

248
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a podcast, and it was so hard to stand out. Yeah,

249
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and then Sean, you started, what like two years ago?

250
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Yeah, just about two years ago, October of twenty twenty three,

251
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we started. Yeah, great, and it's I had no idea

252
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how much work it would be. I think that's the

253
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part that's been the most shocking, that if you want

254
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to do it right, you want to do it thorough

255
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job like both of you do, because it's more it's

256
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a lot of research and investigating and double checking and

257
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fact checking and making sure it's accurate. And that's just

258
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to get you to the script and then forget about

259
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the production end.

260
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But I'm so glad that you tapped into the true

261
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crime community because you know, my day job, I produce

262
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podcasts and YouTube channels or YouTube videos for brands for

263
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like companies. Oh and I always tell them that, like,

264
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you cannot do this alone, right, Like, first of all,

265
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I Noody's going to listen to your audience, to your

266
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show if you don't advertise, if you don't like get

267
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out there. But like another way of growing your audience

268
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is to collaborate kind of like what we're doing right now, rightly,

269
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because we all are in the same space and we

270
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all have our own audiences and this is the way

271
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to grow.

272
00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:02.919
Yeah, focus on that as much this year, not because

273
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I intentionally didn't, but I wanted to. I just sometimes

274
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there's just only so much you can do, and it

275
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just it's overwhelming. Sometimes.

276
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I don't think our listeners realize. I think they do

277
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right because like they're my Patreon supporters, Like I feel

278
00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:22.320
like I don't give them enough, but like I feel

279
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like they're therefore me because they understand, Yeah, how how

280
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little we're working with and we're just like me and

281
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like I finally got an editor and somebody to help

282
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produce a little bit. But it's just us. I mean,

283
00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:41.600
it's a very small, lean and mean team, and we're

284
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doing like a like a thesis every week, you know.

285
00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:45.799
Yeah, exactly.

286
00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:48.399
That's exactly how John explained it. He's like I feel

287
00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:50.840
like we're writing a term paper every week, and I

288
00:14:51.240 --> 00:14:54.039
totally get it. Yeah, it really does feel that way sometimes.

289
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Yeah, but I'm glad that we're doing it right because

290
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you know, if imagine the world before podcasting, where we

291
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only got news from so many news outlets, right like now,

292
00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:12.960
stories like your show, Christen, like you know, you can

293
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bring a case that's gotten cold or whatever and bring

294
00:15:15.679 --> 00:15:19.399
it back to life a little bit, where the major

295
00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:22.919
news networks can't devote that much time to a story,

296
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you know, same with you, Sean.

297
00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:28.159
Yeah, absolutely, that's usually what we try and do. Something

298
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happens locally and it's reported on the news, like woman,

299
00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:34.759
woman was shot by her boyfriend at this location on

300
00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:38.480
this day in time. Boyfriend was arrested, and that's all

301
00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:41.840
we hear, and then that's that's where my job starts

302
00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:44.159
because I want to know, I want to know more

303
00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:46.039
about that story, and I think people should know more

304
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about that story, because how can you have policies that

305
00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:52.120
prevent domestic violends if you don't understand what's causing it

306
00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:54.639
or things we have in place to try and protect

307
00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:58.559
people that are failing. So that's and then why any

308
00:15:58.919 --> 00:16:01.000
person who dies, they just serve more to be than

309
00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:04.120
just like their race, age, gender, in the newspaper. That's

310
00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:05.159
how I feel about it.

311
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:09.159
Yeah, I was listening to your most recent episode about

312
00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:14.279
the domestic violence incident that it resulted in a homicide.

313
00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:16.919
In my opinion, I mean a lot of those stories

314
00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:19.360
don't get attention, and like you pointed out, and the

315
00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:23.080
show is that even law enforcement they treat it as, oh,

316
00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:25.519
this is just a domestic dispute until it's not.

317
00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:26.000
Right.

318
00:16:27.879 --> 00:16:32.440
Yeah, right, And nobody, like a three minute news segment

319
00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:35.240
is not going to do that story. Justice is not

320
00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:38.519
going to give the victim the voice that they.

321
00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:42.240
Need, right, Yeah, absolutely, And Nevada is consistently in the

322
00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:44.679
top ten of states for domestic violence homicides. And I

323
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just feel like it's something that I don't want. I

324
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don't necessarily want Las Vegas to be known for that.

325
00:16:50.440 --> 00:16:52.759
But everybody knows Las Vegas for the for the fun,

326
00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:55.200
but there's you know, three million people live in the

327
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county and we have this pervasive problem, and I just

328
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I just want to draw the more more attention to it.

329
00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:06.079
Kristen, I never asked you where did the name for

330
00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:09.039
your show come from? Like, obviously, like I think of murder,

331
00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:12.119
she wrote, right, But I don't think i've ever asked

332
00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:14.319
you how you landed there.

333
00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:17.119
Yeah, Well, when I was starting the show, I knew

334
00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:19.960
I wanted to focus on Maine and New England cases.

335
00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:22.640
I'm from Maine. I never see like, as a consumer

336
00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:25.559
of true crime, I never saw cases from New England.

337
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With the exception of like the same ones over and over,

338
00:17:29.319 --> 00:17:33.960
I never saw cases. And I just started thinking, like,

339
00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:35.720
what do I want to do? And I knew I

340
00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:38.319
wanted it to be New England. So I started thinking

341
00:17:38.359 --> 00:17:41.759
of titles, and nothing was really sticking, like I remember

342
00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:45.640
brainstorming words. I wrote some stuff down I like mixed

343
00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:49.319
and matched, and this is before Chap GBT, so nothing

344
00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:51.480
was really like clicking, like it didn't feel right. And

345
00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:54.519
then I remember that murder she wrote takes place in

346
00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:57.759
Cabot Cove, Maine, which is a fictional town in Maine.

347
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And I was like, wait a minute, because I knew

348
00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:04.960
I also wanted to do like kind of eighties, nineties, seventies,

349
00:18:05.240 --> 00:18:07.799
early two thousands cases because I feel like they're the

350
00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:10.119
ones that kind of got buried with time, especially in

351
00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:12.920
this region. And I was like, I feel like I'm

352
00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:16.720
onto something, and then I just thought of the told

353
00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:21.200
wrote something spoken and nobody had taken it and the

354
00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:23.160
domain was available, so I bought it on the spot.

355
00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:27.519
That's such a cool logo. Yeah, thanks, that's awesome.

356
00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:31.799
Yeah, but I do yeah, I mean, because it's so

357
00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:34.599
synonymous with murder, she wrote. And sometimes people will recommend

358
00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:36.960
it as murder, she wrote, And I'm like, oh, it's told,

359
00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:40.799
it told like anybody can find murder, she wrote. But

360
00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:43.279
you only find murder, she told, if you're looking for it.

361
00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:43.920
But that's right.

362
00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:46.759
Yeah, I wanted to kind of feel I wanted to

363
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:50.680
feel very like nostalgic and kind of have the branding

364
00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:51.680
be cohesive with that.

365
00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:55.680
All right, Well, when we come back with Sean, Christen

366
00:18:55.920 --> 00:19:02.599
and I will continue our conversation and this special bonus episode.

367
00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:17.559
Well, we talked about documentaries you watched, what about you know,

368
00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:20.160
stuff to Escape true Crime? What have you been watching

369
00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:20.759
this year?

370
00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:24.720
I mean it's the holidays.

371
00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:26.680
I mean is do you have a favorite holiday movie

372
00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:27.799
or tradition?

373
00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:30.359
But our audience is not going to understand that, right, Like,

374
00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:32.519
our audience is going to be like, why would you

375
00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:35.200
want to escape true crime? They love That's why they

376
00:19:35.240 --> 00:19:35.759
listened to us.

377
00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:37.319
It's hard when you're in it.

378
00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:43.319
Yeah, it's like we are marinating in this awful stuff

379
00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:46.200
all the time. So, like, you listen to our one hour,

380
00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:49.359
thirty minute episode or whatever, but we've been living that

381
00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:53.839
for in my case, like months and months sometimes years,

382
00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:56.799
you know, yeah, and like that's the last thing I

383
00:19:56.839 --> 00:19:59.319
want to watch all my firs time.

384
00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:02.160
And I usually joke that, as I've gotten to know

385
00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:05.279
more true crime podcasters personally, that I always feel like

386
00:20:05.319 --> 00:20:08.279
I'm betraying someone because I'm taking my hour to listen

387
00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:11.079
to Kristen, which means I'm not listening to someone else

388
00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:14.039
that I like doing really good work, and it's hard

389
00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:16.359
to keep up with all the great work that so

390
00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:17.559
many folks are doing.

391
00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:20.440
Yeah, we always end up apologizing, right, like, oh, yeah,

392
00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:25.200
listen to your show. I'm like, yeah, nobody podcasters hardly

393
00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:29.079
ever listen to other podcasters work because it's just, you know,

394
00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:30.200
it's like our job.

395
00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:32.799
Yeah, we also work. I mean I don't know about

396
00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:34.279
all of you, but a lot of us we work

397
00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:36.720
at home. I mean, I don't have a commute anymore,

398
00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:39.680
so I don't listen to a lot of things that

399
00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:41.519
I used to do when I used to commute.

400
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:46.839
But you talked about or you asked about our documentaries

401
00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:51.480
and what are your favorite non true crime documentaries do

402
00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:53.599
you have? Do any of these come to mind? I

403
00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:55.519
could start, if you guys want to think about.

404
00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:57.519
It, Yeah, go for it, because I the only thing

405
00:20:57.559 --> 00:20:59.920
that's coming to mind is true crime. And I'm like, I.

406
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:05.640
Was like, and that I was likely. I guess that's

407
00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:07.559
kind of true crime. Did either of you ever see

408
00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:15.799
Capturing the Freedman's Yeah, a family that's affected by accusations

409
00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:19.599
of a father committing sexual abuse. Is that a good

410
00:21:20.359 --> 00:21:23.759
heavy It's really heavy, But it starts out with the documentary.

411
00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:29.799
Filmmaker wanted to make a documentary about clowns, clowns that

412
00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:35.640
perform at child's birthday parties, and connected with this one clown,

413
00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:39.079
and I guess got into his history and he revealed

414
00:21:39.079 --> 00:21:41.799
that these accusations that were made against his dad, and

415
00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:44.119
then so it took a different it went in a

416
00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:47.960
different direction, and the family is one of those we

417
00:21:47.960 --> 00:21:50.880
were really into technology, so kind of like you were saying,

418
00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:55.079
the perfect neighbor. There's a lot of you know, VHS

419
00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:59.279
tape home movies that the family took, they filmed themselves,

420
00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:02.599
you know, years before the documentary, that were incorporated into

421
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:05.880
the documentary, so it's.

422
00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:08.640
You're like seeing it. Yeah, yeah, that always makes it

423
00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:09.519
a lot more interesting.

424
00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:11.279
Yeah, I love that kind of stuff.

425
00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:13.759
Well I was, I was going to say one of them,

426
00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:16.839
but then I changed my mind as you were telling

427
00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:20.880
me your documentary. Have you seen the documentary? Tell me

428
00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:24.160
who I am? I don't even know where you watch.

429
00:22:24.279 --> 00:22:27.400
I think you can watch it on Netflix. So it's

430
00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:30.400
about these brothers. I think I can't remember if they're

431
00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:32.160
twins or not, going it's been a while since I've

432
00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:34.079
watched it. And one of them ends up in a

433
00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:39.359
like a serious motorcycle accident and he loses his memory,

434
00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:42.359
like so he doesn't remember his past, and so he's

435
00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:45.720
relying on his brother to tell him about their childhood,

436
00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:50.640
and he paints this psyche idea like, you know, childhood,

437
00:22:50.680 --> 00:22:52.799
they had like the perfect childhood and he was telling

438
00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:55.400
them all these great things, but in reality, they had

439
00:22:55.440 --> 00:23:01.119
an awful, awful, like very traumatizing childhood, and his brother

440
00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:03.680
was like trying to protect him, you know, so that

441
00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:08.680
he wouldn't have to remember. Yeah, it's really really well done.

442
00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:10.920
Yeah, I do remember watching that a few years ago,

443
00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:13.200
and it is really good. It's heavy, but it's good.

444
00:23:13.480 --> 00:23:16.359
But I feel like a lot of documentaries are on

445
00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:19.720
the heavier side because they're kind of exposing stuff that

446
00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:21.000
people don't want you to know.

447
00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:24.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I mean, can you think of

448
00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:25.599
a lighthearted documentary?

449
00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:28.000
Yes, my octopus teacher.

450
00:23:28.359 --> 00:23:29.480
I love that.

451
00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:33.000
I loved it. I wasn't expecting it. I wasn't expecting

452
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:35.319
to love it. And you just fall in love with

453
00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:38.799
this little octopus and they're so smart and so cool,

454
00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:41.440
and then you're sad when they die.

455
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:45.160
I know, but it's mostly awesome.

456
00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:49.440
It's so touching and so beautiful, and that's highly.

457
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:52.519
Recommend That's what's amazing about good storytelling, right, Like you

458
00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:56.599
don't need a crime to make an interesting story. In fact,

459
00:23:56.680 --> 00:23:59.519
I was I want to make a like a real

460
00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:03.079
about this because lately I've been listening to some guess what,

461
00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:05.240
I don't listen to true crime podcasts, so I listened

462
00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:08.160
to a lot of weird stuff and I just listened

463
00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:12.400
to a podcast that was so good about people movers,

464
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:15.839
like moving sidewalks, and I'm thinking, how could you make

465
00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:20.119
an interesting podcast about like those sidewalks that you get

466
00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:22.240
on the airport, you know, like the people mover. It

467
00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:25.160
was fascinating it was ninety nine percent invisible. It was

468
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:27.680
so good that I was listening to it on the commute.

469
00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:29.640
I couldn't finish it, but I had to get to work,

470
00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:31.319
and so I go up the elevator and I run

471
00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:33.519
to my desk and I finished it. I finished the

472
00:24:33.559 --> 00:24:37.039
episode because you could take a story about something as

473
00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:39.960
mundane as a moving sidewalk and make it interesting.

474
00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:43.920
I never thought that those would have an interesting story attached.

475
00:24:44.359 --> 00:24:46.519
I do love a good moving sidewalk, though. At the

476
00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:49.400
airport you just kind of feel like you're just power walking.

477
00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:53.559
Through until someone just decides to not stand.

478
00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:56.039
There in the middle with their suitcase next to them,

479
00:24:56.039 --> 00:24:57.240
so you can't go around.

480
00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:01.599
Yes, and then you see all the non moving sidewalk

481
00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:05.599
people like Deserving Past Year, I know, very frustrating.

482
00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:11.440
I like to watch bad reality TV sometimes, like Laura

483
00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:15.119
Norton and I will talk about it, and it's just

484
00:25:15.160 --> 00:25:18.759
a really easy escape from true crime. And if I'm watching, like,

485
00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:21.759
I'll have something on in the background that's just dumb

486
00:25:21.799 --> 00:25:24.440
and easy while I'm like processing, you know, records or

487
00:25:24.440 --> 00:25:27.039
something that I don't really need to pay attention to,

488
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:29.160
but I can still retain the story, you know, we're

489
00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:31.440
not watching Game of Thrones over here. We're just watching

490
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:35.079
like people arguing at an airport.

491
00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:36.160
What do you watch?

492
00:25:36.440 --> 00:25:36.519
Like?

493
00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:37.920
What? Out of curiosity?

494
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:43.000
I watched Love Is Blind, which was so dumb this year,

495
00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:47.319
it was so dumb. Laura got me into Ninety Day

496
00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:52.160
Fiance the other way, where the Americans go overseas to

497
00:25:52.279 --> 00:25:58.640
be with their lovers, and that's interesting. I think that's

498
00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:01.039
that's kind of it for right now.

499
00:26:01.079 --> 00:26:05.720
There's just hysterical that Laura Norton watches reality TV show

500
00:26:05.799 --> 00:26:07.279
like I just don't.

501
00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:09.400
Oh yeah, we talk about it all the time, like

502
00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:10.680
on a daily basis.

503
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:11.880
That's so funny.

504
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:18.880
How about your Traders? It's so fun. It's so fun Traders.

505
00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:22.799
Yeah, and I love Survivor too. That's as far as

506
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:24.319
I go with the reality shows.

507
00:26:24.680 --> 00:26:27.640
Yeah. I do like the reality game shows more than

508
00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:31.279
just the peep inside rich people's lives. I like the

509
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:33.000
game show competition more.

510
00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:38.079
Yeah, for sure. I would would you guys ever be on? Like,

511
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:40.319
if you could be on a reality show, which one

512
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:40.759
would it be?

513
00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:44.279
I kind of want to apply to Traders. They're doing

514
00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:45.160
a civilian one.

515
00:26:46.359 --> 00:26:49.000
I wished my son was old enough to try, because

516
00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:50.519
I think to try out for it because I think

517
00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:53.319
he would be great on it, but he's only seventeen

518
00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:54.039
on Traders?

519
00:26:54.119 --> 00:26:55.599
Yeah, why not you Sean?

520
00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:59.279
Oh my gosh, I would want to do amazing race.

521
00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:02.920
I think, as strenuous and stressful as that would be,

522
00:27:02.920 --> 00:27:05.480
and as much as I love flying, like, I would

523
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:08.359
want to do that one like I prowled the world

524
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:10.640
in thirty days under pressure.

525
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:14.400
I think I would like to do Survivor, but I

526
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:17.559
have massive migraines, and so I'm like thinking, nah, I couldn't.

527
00:27:17.559 --> 00:27:19.799
I couldn't do it. But now I think I could

528
00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:22.759
do Traders, although I don't know if I could backstab people.

529
00:27:23.480 --> 00:27:24.359
Could you do it? Would?

530
00:27:27.160 --> 00:27:29.400
I feel like I would be I would be a

531
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:34.559
really good trader because I'm pretty unsuspecting. I think I

532
00:27:34.599 --> 00:27:36.039
could do it. I would just have to look at

533
00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:38.920
it as an acting job that like I am acting

534
00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:42.839
as a Trader. But it's it's hard because, like I Kristin,

535
00:27:43.240 --> 00:27:45.559
when I'm in conversation with you, don't want to lie

536
00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:49.440
to you to your face. But yeah, I mean, if

537
00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:50.799
you're a trader, you kind of have to.

538
00:27:51.079 --> 00:27:56.400
So Yep, it doesn't sound like you guys know Survivor much.

539
00:27:56.440 --> 00:27:59.839
But there's a guy that was Rob, not Boston Rob,

540
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:03.200
the other Rob. Okay, yeah, yeah, so he lives here

541
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:06.440
and he lives in Durham and we were talking and

542
00:28:06.519 --> 00:28:08.839
he's in the new season of Traders that's coming out,

543
00:28:09.319 --> 00:28:11.920
and I was trying to get some some details out

544
00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:16.240
of him, but he also signed a yeah sure, yeah,

545
00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:19.160
what were we calling it? H N DA and DA

546
00:28:19.240 --> 00:28:19.640
that's right?

547
00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:23.039
Yeah, so yeah, they probably have that lockdown.

548
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:26.319
But I'm excited, you know, once this is all over,

549
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:28.200
I want to ask him all about it and get

550
00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:29.799
the the scoop.

551
00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:30.920
That would be cool.

552
00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:32.720
Put it on the podcast we do all ye have

553
00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:33.400
him on the show?

554
00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:38.119
Yeah, I have. When I watch reality shows, I'm looking

555
00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:40.599
at the production, I'm like fascinated, like where are they

556
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:43.000
hiding the mics and where are they likes and stuff

557
00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:44.599
like that. I just want to ask them stupid questions

558
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:46.799
like that, like is that roundtable like really in the

559
00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:49.319
castle or is that like a separate set?

560
00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:51.279
Yeah, stuff like that.

561
00:28:51.400 --> 00:28:53.960
Yeah, I'm behind the scenes stuff.

562
00:28:54.200 --> 00:28:56.079
I heard that they don't actually live in the castle,

563
00:28:56.160 --> 00:28:57.960
which I guess wasn't so much of a surprise if

564
00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:00.079
I thought about it for a couple of seconds.

565
00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:02.039
But it seems less bad if they.

566
00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:06.160
Get busted to like some local you know whatever, Marriott

567
00:29:06.279 --> 00:29:10.039
or something, instead of staying you know, all together there.

568
00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:15.240
But definitely not as glamorous. Yeah no, not as not

569
00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:16.119
as cool.

570
00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:19.640
But it isn't Alan commings like the perfect toast for

571
00:29:19.720 --> 00:29:20.279
that show.

572
00:29:20.359 --> 00:29:21.000
He's so good.

573
00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:25.079
It was like he was born to do that, right right, Yeah,

574
00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:26.519
it's over the top.

575
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:28.759
I love when he rips the picture down and like

576
00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:36.119
throws it or whatever. I just love it. And the outfits, yes, yes,

577
00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:38.640
all the plaid and the bright colors, I love it,

578
00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:39.400
you know, the glass.

579
00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:39.640
Yeah.

580
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:44.680
The costume designer must have so much fun with him. Yeah,

581
00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:46.440
that's a really fun Well do you have any questions

582
00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:49.480
about like what stuff behind the scenes is, Like, I

583
00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:52.599
have plenty of experience, not with like reality TV so much.

584
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:54.960
So what's your what's your day job? I don't think

585
00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:56.000
we've ever talked about this.

586
00:29:56.200 --> 00:30:00.319
I have like ten jobs. I'm an actor, so that's

587
00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:04.400
like my profession prior to being a podcaster. So I'm

588
00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:07.119
a professional actor and I do a lot of commercials,

589
00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:10.279
film work, stuff like that, and then I also work

590
00:30:10.279 --> 00:30:14.640
in events, so I staff events, I'll go on site

591
00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:16.759
and manage events. I did a lot more this year,

592
00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:21.160
which was really hard to juggle podcast stuff, but we're

593
00:30:21.160 --> 00:30:22.200
trying to make it work.

594
00:30:24.200 --> 00:30:28.920
Yeah, exactly, Yeah, Sean. What's your day job.

595
00:30:29.559 --> 00:30:33.880
I'm a grant writer, so I do grant writing. I'm

596
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:35.480
working on a book. I haven't told a lot of

597
00:30:35.480 --> 00:30:37.920
people about that, but yeah, and this is going to

598
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:40.720
be nonfiction. The proposal is done. I have to go

599
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:43.279
back to the sample chapters and make some changes, but

600
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:46.839
that was like my goal by the summer. I want

601
00:30:46.839 --> 00:30:49.960
to pitch it to a couple publishers and if they

602
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:52.240
love it, that's awesome. And if they don't, I might

603
00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:54.559
go the self publishing route.

604
00:30:55.039 --> 00:30:56.240
But it's cool.

605
00:30:56.559 --> 00:30:58.960
It's based on something one of my law school professors

606
00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:01.680
told me, like my first year of law school that

607
00:31:01.799 --> 00:31:04.240
the older I got, the more I saw she was right.

608
00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:09.359
So it's going to be called bitch slut baby.

609
00:31:11.079 --> 00:31:12.640
Oh I was not expecting that.

610
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:16.680
Right this it was two thousand and one, so it

611
00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:18.759
was almost twenty five years ago. But my law school professor,

612
00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:22.680
she told us she's a woman, you know, so she

613
00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:25.119
had kind of, you know, been in this man's world.

614
00:31:25.160 --> 00:31:27.119
Let's say, like as she grew, you know, she was

615
00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:29.640
in her career as her career was growing, and then

616
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:33.480
now she's teaching us and one of my you know,

617
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:38.559
colleagues asked a question about sidebars, and she said, you know,

618
00:31:38.680 --> 00:31:41.039
I talk to us about that, like we see it

619
00:31:41.079 --> 00:31:42.839
in TV all the time, like how does it really work?

620
00:31:43.400 --> 00:31:46.680
And for some reason, my professor she was like, you

621
00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:50.000
have to be really careful because when you approached the

622
00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:54.359
bench sometimes judges will take that opportunity to look down

623
00:31:54.400 --> 00:31:57.559
your top. And so she was like, so just be careful,

624
00:31:57.599 --> 00:31:59.240
which I thought was really interesting and I thought was

625
00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:02.519
probably coming from her personal experience. But she said, when

626
00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:05.480
you walk into a classroom, you're a courtroom. Sorry, when

627
00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:07.480
you walk into a courtroom, you're going to be seen

628
00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:09.319
as one of three things. You're going to be seen

629
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:11.960
as a bitch, a slut, or a baby. Which one

630
00:32:11.960 --> 00:32:15.559
do you want to be choose? And so that was

631
00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:21.599
just like her lesson to us. So she made it

632
00:32:21.640 --> 00:32:25.519
clear that she had chosen bitch, meaning like, you want

633
00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:28.519
to be on your game, you want to be rigid,

634
00:32:28.759 --> 00:32:31.640
you don't want to ever ask for help, and you

635
00:32:31.720 --> 00:32:35.359
don't want to ever flirt or give anyone the chance

636
00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:36.920
to think that you might be flirting. And this was

637
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:38.880
like her armor that she had put on to like

638
00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:41.119
navigate her career. And I was kind of like, you know,

639
00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:43.480
that's really interesting. I'm like, And then the more I'm like,

640
00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:45.680
I don't know if you get to pick, I don't

641
00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:47.799
know if you get to pick. I think sometimes people

642
00:32:48.279 --> 00:32:51.319
see you a certain way and that's what they latch onto.

643
00:32:51.960 --> 00:32:54.039
And I think you can see it in true crime,

644
00:32:56.559 --> 00:33:00.000
you know, any like witnesses or victims, right, I mean,

645
00:33:00.039 --> 00:33:02.440
and it's you know, who who gets to be the

646
00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:06.240
baby and be protected and who gets called a bitch

647
00:33:06.279 --> 00:33:10.400
or who gets called a slut and is ignored or disrespected.

648
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:13.440
So that's kind of where what it's going to be.

649
00:33:14.200 --> 00:33:15.359
And you can take that out if you want to

650
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:17.759
have air. But I just want to know way, I

651
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:18.680
think that's fascinating.

652
00:33:18.759 --> 00:33:21.279
This is like the best part of the podcast.

653
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:24.079
I haven't heard before that.

654
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:26.319
Yeah, you know, I mean it's kind of like, I mean,

655
00:33:26.359 --> 00:33:28.119
I don't know, I don't want to get to like cerebral.

656
00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:31.480
But you know, you guys have both heard like Madonna whore, right,

657
00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:32.920
Like a woman is going to be seen as like

658
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:36.000
you do your mother and like righteous or like the

659
00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:39.279
opposite of that, and she kind of gave us three choices,

660
00:33:39.319 --> 00:33:41.119
and then I was kind of like, you know, like

661
00:33:41.119 --> 00:33:44.200
like Monica Lewinsky, I think is probably one of my

662
00:33:44.359 --> 00:33:46.880
good examples, right, I mean, how did we see her?

663
00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:49.319
I don't know how. I think I'm older than both

664
00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:51.240
of you, but you know, I don't you know, how

665
00:33:51.240 --> 00:33:52.759
do we see her in the nineties, And how do

666
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:58.799
we see her now? And did she choose that to

667
00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:01.799
be labeled that way? Of course she did, and like

668
00:34:01.880 --> 00:34:04.480
that was like thrust upon her. So and you see

669
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:07.279
that with I don't know, Amanda Knox or like Alli,

670
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:10.000
Like you can just kind of pick people out and

671
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:12.639
just kind of say these people were seen were described

672
00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:16.880
as unhinged or untruthful or in the wrong like making

673
00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:20.000
wrong choices like drinking too much or what they're wearing

674
00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:23.000
like a victim blaming. But then also you have people

675
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:27.480
like of Britney Spears, I guess is a good example.

676
00:34:28.039 --> 00:34:31.599
We see her as a baby in the sense that

677
00:34:31.639 --> 00:34:35.559
she needed protection and that wasn't necessarily a good thing.

678
00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:37.199
It's not always a good thing to be the baby,

679
00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:40.679
because you don't always get protected if your baby that

680
00:34:40.840 --> 00:34:43.800
kind of dynamics that's.

681
00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:47.239
Really interesting, Like yeah, I mean obviously I'm not a woman,

682
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:51.000
but it like when you said it, Like, I don't

683
00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:52.920
know about you, Christen, but I was like, wow, that

684
00:34:53.079 --> 00:34:53.920
is a great.

685
00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:55.559
Yeah, that's a great title.

686
00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:56.559
Thank you.

687
00:34:57.039 --> 00:35:00.039
That was like, I like, but that's exactly what she

688
00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:01.920
said to us in the classroom, and it was kind

689
00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:03.519
of shocking when she said it, Like.

690
00:35:03.880 --> 00:35:05.719
So, publishers, if you're.

691
00:35:05.559 --> 00:35:08.079
Listening, yeah, if you're interested in this one.

692
00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:10.679
That's right. I want to read it. All right, let's

693
00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:14.000
do that. Well, Chris and Sean, this was fun. This

694
00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:16.840
was so much fun to just like let loose and

695
00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:20.679
just talk shop with you guys. I help my audience

696
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:23.760
that Pretend listeners go out and check out Sins and

697
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:28.400
Survivors and Murder, she told, because they're excellent podcasts.

698
00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:31.599
Yeah, go listen to Pretend. It's really fun. And Javier

699
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:35.599
asks questions that I am so impressed by because you

700
00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:38.320
just like go, you ask the questions that I'm too

701
00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:41.360
afraid to ask people, and I love it. So go

702
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:42.199
listen to mind.

703
00:35:42.599 --> 00:35:45.440
I don't mind getting uncomfortable with people, and so I

704
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:50.039
love that. Yeah that's awesome. Well, thank you guys so much.

705
00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:53.639
Thanks for having me. Yeah, yeah, this is fun.

706
00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:53.960
Thank you.

707
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:02.000
I think you don't tell people