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Hi, and welcome to Sins and Survivors, a Las Vegas
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true crid podcast where we cover stories of domestic violence,
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missing persons, and unsolved cases. I'm your host Sean and
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I'm your co host John. Last week we brought you
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the first part of our interview with Liz Wortenberger, CEO
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of the largest domestic violence agency in Nevada and the
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only domestic violence shelter located in the city of Las Vegas.
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This week, we're bringing you the continuation of that interview.
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If you missed the first week, we recommend you go
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back and listen. And if you're new to the podcast, welcome.
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Our typical format is a deep dive into missing person,
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unsolved murder, or domestic violence stories from the Las Vegas area.
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Our goal here is to raise awareness by these issues
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and hoefully lead families to answers and always to provide
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resources for listeners. We put out a new episode every week,
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and for our subscribers, we also do a weekly bonus
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Swing Shift episode where we go behind the scenes and
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give you a glimpse into our process of putting the
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episode together. So please like and follow the podcast on
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whatever platform you're listening on, and we would always appreciate
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a five star review if you love what you're hearing.
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We're part of the mission to make true crime better
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and we're happy to have you with us. So let's
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pick up where we left off last week. So one
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of the things that we were talking about before before
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we met with you was around the work that Safenest
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does with offenders. I find that really interesting. So I
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have so many questions about this and I'm hoping you
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can tell us all about it. So we have questions
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like how self aware are these offenders? What is holding
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them back from accessing resources, seeking support, seeking treatment? Is
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it the lack of self awareness? Is it fear of failure,
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job loss, just them being narcissists? So like, what is
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holding them back from accessing programs like you have at
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Safenest and also tell us about that program.
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Yeah, yeah, so safeness has been growing. It's abusive partner
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program probably for really an earnest and since COVID. Right,
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So we run the court mandated program and there's a
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child Protective Services mandated program as well, but we've started
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expand that to work with abusive partners really in a
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very similar way that we work with with survivors. And
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do you need workforce development help, do you need housing?
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What are some of the things that are holding you
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back from succeeding? Right? And of course woven into that
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is taking responsibility for your behavior, which is a number
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one in domestic violence abuser work is are you going
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to take responsibility? And then where can we go from there?
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Because once you take responsibility, we're on a different trajectory.
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Getting folks to that point is sometimes the hardest part, right,
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And then we do the twenty six week classes, we
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kind of see that turn around six seven weeks where
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people start to take responsibility. Honestly, my therapists are phenomenal,
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but that really comes from the guys that have been
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in the class longer holding the folks that have been
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in the class for a shorter period of time accountable.
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This is the dynamic of abusive partner work that has
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sorely missed. I think throughout like the literature and really
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just in the space in general. Folks that have been
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through the program are your best. It's like aa right,
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folks that have been sober for five years are great
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to talk to people that are newly sober about how
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to fight the demons to stay sober.
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Right.
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It's the same with abusive partners, right, It's like, how
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do we fight the things that early? You know you've
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been through it, so you understand that early phase. We
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also know that our abusive partner when they can kind
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of organically connect, which our therapists allows some time for
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those conversations, aren't like I mean, I have heard within
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the domestic violence movement like, oh, these guys are swapping
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hints on how to hit their survivors around the water cooler.
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I've never seen that. Of course, they wouldn't do that
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in front of me. What I see differently is like,
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how do you deal with your partner now that you're
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getting support and she's become violent because she's you're not
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engaging how you used to, and so she's feeling ignored. Right,
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we see these really powerful conversations happening, So our goal
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is to build out much more of that. So the
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same way we work with survivors, work with abusive partners,
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have an abusive partner hotline we should be launching hopefully
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this summer, so that if you're starting to feel violent,
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like you're you know, if you're in a new relationship,
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you're having work stressors, you first of all, you understand
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what your violent triggers are, you're drinking those kinds of things,
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you can call this hotline and start getting support and
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services maybe from the bar before you go home. So yeah,
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the idea, you know, domestic the domestic violence movement is
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interesting because largely the nonprofit side of it is working
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with survivors, and they're really like when I talk at
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conferences and things about this work that we do with abusers,
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I get a pretty visceral reaction from some of our
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more entrenched grassroots organizations that are like that, basically like
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this is against everything that the domestic violence movement was for,
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the battered Women's movement was for, and so I can
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understand some of that. I also will say, domestic violence
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doesn't end when we help survivors, whether or not that
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survivor goes back, or whether or not that abusive partner
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finds someone new. I think we have a responsibility if
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your mission is to end this epidemic, to work with
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the root cause, and that's the abuser. And you know,
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my hope will be at some point we have the
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resources that we can open abusive and abusive partner halfway
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house so I don't have to remove the victim and
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the kiddos from from the house or the apartment. They
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can stay in the surroundings that are comfortable for them,
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with the family, with the school, with their world not
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turned upside down. The abusive partner can come into services
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and we can work differently, and then we can make
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decisions based on what's right for that family. When everybody
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is not looking at homelessness, everybody's not looking at court,
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being incarcerated, all these things, we can take the temperature
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down and we can have some real conversations that I
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think is how real change is made in this movement.
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Have we gotten there yet? No, We're still trying to
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build that, trying to get funding to do this work.
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You know, largely people see I think the person again
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who's not in this work every day, sees abusive partner
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as an important person that should be incarcerated and is
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not worthy of any resources. Well, if we continue thinking
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about you know, abusive partners that way, we're going to
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continue to have homicides and those high levels of domestic violence.
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If we start to think about it differently, resource it differently,
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study what we're doing, pilot and study, pilot and study.
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I think within ten years we can be in a
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very different place in Clark County. But it takes some
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investment and some willingness to do these things differently. I
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love that. I appreciate that so much.
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I think that's something that you and I've talked about
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a bunch, Like we've the movement has not changed enough
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from the nineties that we've actually seen progress, and we've
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been using the same strategies over and over again, and
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it doesn't really feel like anything's gotten any better. Like
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you said, part of that is funding, but the other
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part of it is just looking at those root causes.
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So I always appreciate it that that's your point of
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view on it.
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Yeah, And you know, it's always interesting because we have
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really as this movement grew out of the women's movement,
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which is really kind of the trajectory, right, we female
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focused it, and the issue there is is, you know,
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I hate when people say, you know, seventeen hundred women
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were raped last year, seventeen hundred men raped women last year, Like,
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we need to start to really understand the way we
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talk about this thing is you know, I can tell
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you eight hundred and ninety eight men in Las Vegas
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committed arson against their female intimate partner last year. Let's
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hold the eight hundred and eighty nine men accountable and
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stop asking the women to relocate, to leave, to do
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all these things, to press charges, to leave their jobs,
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to all these things. Let's hold these eight hundred and
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ninety eight men accountable. That's a very different conversation than
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the one most of the domestic violence movement is having,
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which is how do we create more shelters, how do
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we get more resources? Which that's going to be a
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tile wave of things because we're not dealing with the
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actual root cause. So that's yeah, it's there's a path there.
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I think whether or not the movement is willing or
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does a new movement need to be created? Like how
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do we get to that space? But getting there will
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have more answers, I think than we have now.
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So the next question I guess is, since Clark County's
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not doing the best job. We talked previously about some
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places that are doing a better job. So you mentioned
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some of the ways that agencies and advocates to things
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differently in places like San Diego. So can you talk
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a little about things that they're doing that Nevada isn't
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that you would like to see us doing here.
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Yeah, So San Diego has a one safe Place network,
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So we're opening one campus here in Clark County. They
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have three in San Diego, much bigger county than ours.
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They had five homicides county wide, one homicide, DMI homicide
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in the city of San Diego last year and that
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population is a million more than Las Vegas, right, so
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this is working. So I took a group of folks
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from law enforcement, from our agency, from other partner agencies
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to see their program in San Diego. And what we
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see is this continuum of care. Right so a survivor
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walks in, they get connected to resources. Law enforcement is
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part of that, The DA's office is part of that.
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So the survivor right away realizes if I'm going to
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walk forward with prosecution, I have got a network of
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support and help. The second part of that is that
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connecting the systems of really police agencies like Safeness in
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the District Attorney's office to share notes on the cases
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creates a better pathway, a quicker pathway, and a more
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efficient system. Right. So if we can take I think
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right now we're looking at like six to nine months
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from time of incident to justice court, Nashville, which is
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also a place doing this work really well, has taken
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that I think down to thirty five days. Right, is
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a very different dynamic when we are going from six
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to nine months to a month.
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Right.
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But these things don't happen because the court gets more efficient.
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These things happen when all the systems get intertwined. Everybody's
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talking the same language, and we are each of us
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is in our lane, working our strength. Like in Nashville,
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every morning, the version of safe Nest, the district attorney,
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and the police all sit at a table together, go
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over the case plans for that day and then the
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next week, right, and all the right resources are allocated
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to each one of these folks, the survivor. But then
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also what that communication helps you do is understand who
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your super abusers are. Because we have abusers that are
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abusing more than one person, and unless we're intertwining that
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information and recognizing that we've got sort of a serial
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abuser here. Those things are happening in a vacuum like
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I know it. I know it because our database does that.
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Who else knows this? Right? So that intertwining those multidisciplinary
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teams on the back end, So it's a twofold win.
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It's the services, the campus, the place that survivors can
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get safe, get the resources they need. All of those
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kinds of things create community, right really amongst that survivor
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network and then the multidisciplinary teams that should spring out
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of those things. That those are the two winning factors
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in these communities.
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I'm trying to think a good transition. Yeah, thank you
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for sharing all that. I always want to hear about solutions.
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That's the one thing that I want to hear about.
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It's it's one thing for us to go over these
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terrifying statistics and the horror stories that people live through.
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If we're not talking about solutions, then where are we
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going to go? Where are we going to go with
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this conversation?
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This work would be coopful, right if there wasn't, Yeah,
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it wasn't.
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I need to feel that that things can get better.
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So yes, yeah, So the first solution is I think
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the first part of everything. In fact, I told somebody
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this today, I stopped fund It really didn't mean for
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them to stop funding safeness, but we have to start
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investing in kids.
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Right.
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The first solution is ending childhood unmitigated childhood trauma. And
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that's not just for domestic violence. That's for sex trafficking,
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intervenous drug use, alcoholism, obesity. I mean, if you I
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can name every sort of social ill and I can
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tell you the answers lie in childhood trauma. And it's
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not just the childhood trauma happened, it's that it's unmitigated
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childhood trauma. Right. So when we look at women that
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go into sex trafficking, that are recruited into that industry,
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that abhorrent sort of behavior, most of them were sexually
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abused by the age of three. Many of them never
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was that either not believed or it was never even
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talked about. Right, So childhood trauma is the first solution,
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and that you know that does not need to be
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like we rework the Clark County Schools District because we
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know that's not going to happen. But what can that
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look like. That can look like putting hope education into
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the schools, which is as simple as quarterly having kids
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have an age appropriate story about someone in their community
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that grew up in rough circumstances but succeeding today, and
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a little lesson around that doesn't have to do anything
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with sexual violence, doesn't need to be sexual in nature,
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doesn't need to do anything, just needs to be metaphorically.
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What we're doing for these kids is saying that guy
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had it tough. Now I've heard his story, what he did,
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how he elevated. Now when I'm having a dark time,
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I can pull on that. That's how we build kids hope,
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which is better than resiliency, help kids succeed. We also
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need to make sure, like if I was running Clark
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County School District, but I'm not so if Joan Ebert's listening,
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you know, just a suggestion, every kiddo should have a
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hope plan that is a simple one page document that
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I start out when I start in preschool or kindergarten.
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It's like, hey, my hope is that I can be
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an astronaut or a teacher or whatever. Right, what's my
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hope for my future?
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Right?
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And every kiddo that follows them. So if I'm a
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kid who's moving schools a lot, because we see that
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a lot in our in our population, the first thing
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that teacher's saying to me when I walk in is, Hey,
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it's so great to meet you. Tell me about being
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an astronaut. Right, my gosh, we have right away created
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just a connection piece that then we're supporting that kiddo
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on right, and they can say, you know it was
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an astronaut, but now I want to be a well,
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tell me about that.
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Right.
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Just giving these connection points, every kiddo should have a
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hope plan. Then when we move out of like, all
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of the work that needs to happen in the youth
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space because that's where we end this. We can end
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this thing in a generation and a half if we
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invest appropriately in youth, then we work move into that
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protection place. We've got to educate young people around the
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dynamics of relationships that should be available to them. That
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can be both friend relationships intimate partner relationships. But we
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have got to do a better job in preparing our
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young people for predators, preparing our young people for gas lighters,
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for narcissists, for the world in correlation with that really
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what we need to start to do for young men.
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So I think we've all heard the research about how
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young men are being left behind, and I don't disagree
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that's a problem. But here's the thing that we need
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to stop saying to young men. Rather than oh, the
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world is no longer for you, right, which is which
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I've heard, the world is here for you differently, because now,
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how you show up to a relationship with a partner
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who is also able to make a living wage, able
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to support themselves, able to protect themselves. How do you
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show up as a partner and not a protector or
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not the patriarch? How do you show up differently? And
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we're not training our young men for that. We're training
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our young women how to you know, navigate the world,
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how to be leaders, how to do all these great things.
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We're not training our young men for the changes in dynamic.
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So that's really important. So that's kind of our younger people,
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and then our teens, and then in our space of protection.
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You know, Clark County has fewer confidential beds than Washoe County.
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We're eighty percent of the state's population. There needs to
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be real civic donor investment in building out what is appropriate.
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You know, safeness is here. We're opening this new campus,
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but I'm carrying a five million dollar loan. We're self
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funding the retrofit. Because our largest family foundation in towns
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no longer funding capital improvements. Our county has decided to
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pull seven point eight million dollars in funding. There needs
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to be some funding for the protection the safety net,
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because the safety net needs to exist or homicides are
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just going to continue to go up because we haven't
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been doing the first two things I talked about right,
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So that protection's framework needs to be built out and
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needs to be built out in a way that it's adjustable.
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So we build out shelter beds that in you know,
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in five years we're using for abusive partners instead running
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a halfway house model, they can have that transferability. And
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then the final part of that is we need to
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create empowerment networks for survivors and abusive partners and really
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folks that are are marginalized in a way that makes sense.
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Clark County, We've got phenomenal like Rick does a great
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job at Goodwill with the with the programs, but most
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of the stuff that we've built out is for unencumbered adults,
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low income unencumbered adults. If I've got kiddos, I and
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I'm a woman, even really this is a lot tougher.
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So one of the things that Safeness is doing is
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we'll be opening a large new retail center that we
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will be hiring people constantly. Every Wednesday, we'll be onboarding.
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Because I recognize in my survivors and my abusive partners
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the need for immediate income. I don't need a six
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week certificate program. I need to feed my kids tonight.
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So how do we create these entryway programs not designed
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to be your forever job, but it's designed to get
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you out of survival mode immediately and really understanding that dynamic.
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I think we have a lot of well intentioned workforce
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development programs in town that I am talking about, instant access,
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so daily pay, you know, all these kinds of things
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that we can relieve some stress on our low income
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population that's navigating these situations so they can stabilize, get
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out of survival mode and then actually start thinking about
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a future, particularly those folks that have kids. So those
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are kind of like the line of solutions that I
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that could really make change. But they take some investment that,
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you know Clark County's I wrote an op ed the
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other day. It feels like I'm screaming into the wind.
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Where are the county? Where's county leadership? You know, Shelley Berkeley,
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mayor of Las Vegas, has been a phenomenal partner. Shelley
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cares deeply. The city has got its own financial sort
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of struggles right now, but the county has largely been nowhere.
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And I think you know, anybody listening that lives in
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Clark County, that is a question to ask your commissioners,
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what are you going to do about DV You know,
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where's the domestic violence dashboard at every county meeting? Why
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aren't we having conversations? You know, if you do a
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if you read all of the fatality review reports from Nevada,
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the State of Nevada from their available from twenty fourteen forward,
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when you put all those together, it says partnership and
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working together is the answer. But yet we sit in
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a county that's heavily siloed, rather immature in the way
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government works with nonprofits, and seemingly unwilling to make any
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real change for there to be better outcomes. For the
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folks that we serve. County has to stop delivering program
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It needs to empower the nonprofits and do what county
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government is supposed to do in counties our size, which
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is governance and oversight. They can leave the dealings of
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everything that needs to happen for these folks to a
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very capable nonprofit core. So those are those are a
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few of the ways.
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Yeah, and it's really it's important, Like you said, it
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has to be a group effort, a team effort, because,
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as we've been saying, going down one road has not
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got us to where we need to be. So we,
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like you always say, we can't punish our way out
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of this. We can't incarcerate our way out of this.
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And in some ways we can't build enough shelter beds
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because there will always be more if we don't stop
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the pipeline.
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Yeah, and I mean within the nonprofit sector, like Sean,
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you know this, even within our space, it's like, stop
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the stupidity. Do we need four hotlines? Do we know?
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Do we need four administrative buildings? Do we need four
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of everything? We do?
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Not?
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Right? And so boards of directors that are working in
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these spaces, where do we start to say, you know,
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so safeness is about an eight to ten million dollar budget.
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We're more than all the other agencies combined. And this
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is not a sort of a safeness plug. But wouldn't
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we be better if we were an eighteen million dollar
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industry working with one hotline with one copy or lease
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with one bill to the county for sewer? Right, All
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these things could be consolidated and it would actually be
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better for survivors. Then when we talk about having a
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specialized program maybe for low income immigrant moms, right, we
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could then resource that differently, because all of a sudden,
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that resource, that administrative burden is lessened because there's one
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there's one organization. There is business skill of mergers and
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acquisitions that would be incredibly helpful in this space. But
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it takes boards of directors realizing this is not about
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it is not about safeness, it's not about Liz Ortenberger,
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it's not about anybody. It's about what will be the
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best working mechanisms for survivors and for this epidemic in
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our community. And then be willing to come to a table,
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be vulnerable and hash out maybe a better solution because
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we are start while not redundant in nature because we
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can't house and do all the things we want to
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do for the clients we have. There is any efficiencies
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when you have four agencies doing what one larger agency
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could do more efficiently.
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Let's pivot into some questions that we got from our listeners,
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because I wish I knew exactly how this listener heard
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about PS four seventeen, but I don't think they're local.
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But they asked me to ask you, what changes have
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you seen with PS four seventeen, And I guess you'd
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to say a little bit about that program.
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So PS four seventeen is a program started in twenty
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seventeen where we go out on calls with police. We
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go out on calls that include strangulation, a smaut with
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a weapon, repeat calls to the same household. Last year
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we were out on scene for fifteen hundred calls, which
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relative to the size of numbers I've been talking about,
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is relatively small. Anybody working with a large police department
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will know people shuffle all the time. So maintaining that
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relationship with our police department is a constant. Like I
439
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have one person for whom that's their entire job is
440
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staying engaged with police going out to all the area
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commands and training. The program is fantastic. Everybody that we've
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intersected with in that program at least last year. I
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just looked at this data. There has been no homicides
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in that population. There's a micro program there like when
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Safe Nest is involved. And this is matches the Genie
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Geiger Institute for anyone who understands those folks that do
447
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this work as well, is nine percent of women before
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they are murdered in domestic violence. Only sorry, I will
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say it a different way. Only four percent of women
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who are in the twelve months before they're murdered in
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domestic violence will reach out to an agency like Safeness
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for a lot of very probably very good reasons. But
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eighty six percent will have an intersection with police. So
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that's where we started this program with that data point.
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Then we started going out. So it makes sense to
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me those clients that we're intersecting with in that program
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are not being murdered. We do have, you know, the
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struggle is we should be you know, more calls than that.
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But what happens is Metro says, hey, do you want
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safe Nests to come out? Then it's like you know,
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you've just had all these police in your house. Gosh
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knows what's happening. You don't need someone else there. We
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tested that, and so when we show up, even when
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we're not requested or they said they'd prefer a follow
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up phone call, usually they talk to us typically right
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because they're like, we're there, We're in place and close.
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So it's a great program. It is resource intensive. We
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have always wanted it to be more volunteer driven than
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it is, but COVID put altole. We have not recovered
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in our volunteer ranks since COVID. But it's a great program,
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and I'm happy if anybody wants to reach out through
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Sean or however, I will chat with anybody about how
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it started, and I will tell you the number one
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critical thing. You have to have a relationship with your
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police chief or your sheriff, because it has to come
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from the top down on that side. Absolutely.
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So one we got from a listener that I was
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really interested in, So I'm going to ask it, how
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did Safe Nests reach the decision to start accepting pets
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into the shelter? What brought that on?
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Yeah, it's you know, it's an incredibly important part of
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what we do. But a lot of times what can
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00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:49.599
happen is I get my pets safe, and now we're
484
00:25:49.640 --> 00:25:52.200
trying to figure out how to get that pet adopted
485
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:55.359
or fostered because they're not able to take care of
486
00:25:55.400 --> 00:25:57.759
the pets. So there's a lot of complexities with a
487
00:25:57.799 --> 00:26:00.640
pet program. I think everybody thinks, oh, great, the pets
488
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:03.039
can come along and it's one and done, but really
489
00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:05.079
it's much more complicated than that. We're oft of dealing
490
00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:08.400
with animals that haven't been appropriately vaccinated, that might have
491
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:13.119
injuries themselves, that are also traumatized, and you know, keeping
492
00:26:13.160 --> 00:26:17.519
everybody safe and healthy in a fairly small environment can
493
00:26:17.559 --> 00:26:21.160
be tricky, especially in a communal shelter environment can be
494
00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:24.200
really hard. Yeah, my dream would be to build a
495
00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:27.440
pet housing so that when you come in with a pet,
496
00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:30.039
your house with your pet. That just requires a different
497
00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:32.880
level of construction in terms of like, you know, pet
498
00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:35.279
proof floors and things like that. But yeah, that would
499
00:26:35.319 --> 00:26:36.960
be ideal. Yeah, definitely.
500
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:41.119
And also it's not just dogs and not just cats. No, right,
501
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:44.440
we were just talking about that dragon kimono. Dragon was
502
00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:48.279
our first one. Wow, I'm still waiting for someone to
503
00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:48.720
come in with.
504
00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:52.200
You know, we're fairly agricultural here, like a chicken. We
505
00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:55.920
had a pigeon one time, so yeah, we have all
506
00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:58.839
kinds of fun things that happened in that program.
507
00:26:58.920 --> 00:26:59.920
Yeah, we were talking about the pitch.
508
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:00.880
I mentioned that.
509
00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:02.799
I said, I don't think that it was anticipated that
510
00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:05.039
someone would come with a pigeon when we said pets,
511
00:27:05.480 --> 00:27:07.880
think dogs and cats, maybe rabbit, maybe a bird.51200:27:07.920 --> 00:27:10.640
But yeah, that was interesting. It was like a pigeon.51300:27:10.680 --> 00:27:14.119
It wasn't like a domesticated n Yeah, like this poor51400:27:14.160 --> 00:27:16.599
pigeon had been injured and she had taken it under51500:27:16.599 --> 00:27:20.519
her wing to help it. Yeah, that was an interesting one.51600:27:20.640 --> 00:27:22.200
Under her wing, I see you.51700:27:23.079 --> 00:27:27.559
One of our local listeners asked about resources for youth. So,51800:27:27.599 --> 00:27:30.240
how does Safeness work with schools to make sure kids51900:27:30.279 --> 00:27:32.400
affected by domestic violence don't fall behind?52000:27:32.599 --> 00:27:34.960
Yeah, the best thing you can do is lobby your52100:27:34.960 --> 00:27:39.519
school to work with us, right, So we work with52200:27:39.559 --> 00:27:42.359
Title one. The Title one program within the school district52300:27:42.400 --> 00:27:45.680
is phenomenal. So we make sure that the kids that52400:27:45.720 --> 00:27:48.559
are in our care getting the appropriate schooling. But there52500:27:48.599 --> 00:27:51.880
are a couple things. We passed legislation in twenty nineteen52600:27:52.039 --> 00:27:55.680
that any police officer responding to a home with school52700:27:55.720 --> 00:27:58.279
aged kids is supposed to call safe Voice. It's my52800:27:58.440 --> 00:28:01.960
understanding that's largely not happening. But yet the idea behind52900:28:01.960 --> 00:28:05.000
that program is that then the school knows that a53000:28:05.079 --> 00:28:07.759
kiddo has had a traumatic incident at their home and53100:28:07.799 --> 00:28:09.880
they can put the resources around that kiddo at the53200:28:09.920 --> 00:28:12.880
next school day. Yeah, so we would kids within our care,53300:28:13.000 --> 00:28:15.440
we work with the schools, But largely I think the53400:28:16.039 --> 00:28:19.680
system of that could be could be improved in terms53500:28:19.680 --> 00:28:23.119
of how kids and maybe parents that are slipping through53600:28:23.160 --> 00:28:27.480
the cracks could more easily be identified.53700:28:27.640 --> 00:28:30.079
We also we got several questions that were kind of53800:28:30.119 --> 00:28:33.200
related to the survivor experience, which is not a surprise53900:28:33.279 --> 00:28:35.960
to me or to you that they people always have54000:28:36.039 --> 00:28:40.400
questions about that. Someone in Texas asked me, how do54100:28:40.440 --> 00:28:43.000
you build trust with survivors who may be scared or54200:28:43.079 --> 00:28:44.559
unsure about seeking help.54300:28:44.680 --> 00:28:49.200
Yeah, so, like I talked about earlier, that relationship really54400:28:49.240 --> 00:28:52.039
starts on the hotline, and it starts with those hotline54500:28:52.079 --> 00:28:55.039
advocates who are creating that space for you to be heard,54600:28:55.319 --> 00:28:57.559
for you to get the resources that you need, for54700:28:57.599 --> 00:29:01.559
you to feel valued. And then that transitions that trust54800:29:01.599 --> 00:29:04.680
can be hard on the residential campus. I think there54900:29:04.759 --> 00:29:09.359
is a really easy way for domestic violence programs to55000:29:09.559 --> 00:29:13.279
flip from from being trauma informed to being controlling. I55100:29:13.319 --> 00:29:16.720
hear about programs across the country. In fact, I visited55200:29:16.759 --> 00:29:18.799
one not so long ago where she's like, oh, yeah,55300:29:18.799 --> 00:29:20.799
we're in these rooms at eight o'clock telling all these55400:29:20.880 --> 00:29:22.960
ladies to get up. That sounds like prison to me.55500:29:23.960 --> 00:29:27.680
And I think if you're operating your domestic violence shelter55600:29:27.799 --> 00:29:30.319
in that way, I think you need to check your biases,55700:29:30.400 --> 00:29:32.400
and I think you need to check your understanding of55800:29:32.400 --> 00:29:36.240
what's appropriate for survivors and what's appropriate for trauma. And55900:29:36.519 --> 00:29:41.880
instead of putting your belief system on a survivor community,56000:29:42.039 --> 00:29:46.799
really maybe create a shelter advisory board from survivors who56100:29:46.799 --> 00:29:49.680
have been through your program. Ask them how you can improve,56200:29:49.759 --> 00:29:54.480
get survivor feedback, change that dynamic. But that's a lot56300:29:54.519 --> 00:29:57.200
of the ways. You know, shelter can be a very56400:29:57.279 --> 00:30:00.680
very tough place. Just residential programs within in this space56500:30:00.759 --> 00:30:03.440
in general are really really hard. We're dealing with people56600:30:03.880 --> 00:30:07.039
with all different lived experiences, all different levels of trauma,56700:30:07.279 --> 00:30:10.960
all different levels of healing related to that. Trauma. Sometimes56800:30:10.960 --> 00:30:13.920
we're dealing with victims from the same abuser that have56900:30:14.119 --> 00:30:17.039
kids by the same abuser. That dynamic, we're dealing with57000:30:17.039 --> 00:30:20.039
people who have been trafficked through a gang. The complexities57100:30:20.079 --> 00:30:22.440
are real, and we're dealing with people who have different57200:30:22.519 --> 00:30:27.119
understandings about personal hygiene, different understandings about findiness, have no57300:30:27.240 --> 00:30:30.079
idea how to live communally with someone else because that57400:30:30.200 --> 00:30:33.119
experience is foreign to them. So we're dealing with all57500:30:33.119 --> 00:30:36.279
of these very human realities. And then we've got, you know,57600:30:36.799 --> 00:30:39.359
all the violence, the mistrust, and the fear on top57700:30:39.400 --> 00:30:41.680
of that. So a lot of this has to do57800:30:41.759 --> 00:30:44.440
with you got to have the right ratios of staff57900:30:44.480 --> 00:30:50.079
to clients. You've got to have really forward thinking case management,58000:30:50.480 --> 00:30:53.680
and you've got to have advocates who listen. Listening is58100:30:53.720 --> 00:30:56.839
probably the most important thing, you know. I read a58200:30:56.880 --> 00:31:00.759
study in doctors' offices. Since we'll tell dogs the most58300:31:01.000 --> 00:31:06.559
pressing issue three issues in, but doctors here the first issue.58400:31:06.680 --> 00:31:09.799
And so your doctor's operating on the fact that you've58500:31:09.799 --> 00:31:12.880
got lower back pain. Meanwhile, two things in you're telling58600:31:12.920 --> 00:31:16.079
about the lump in your armpit. Right here's totally missing.58700:31:16.079 --> 00:31:18.599
The lump in the armpit which is probably the bigger deal.58800:31:18.799 --> 00:31:21.720
The same thing can happen in advocacy. The thing that's58900:31:21.799 --> 00:31:23.880
coming at me is that you're fighting with your roommate.59000:31:24.160 --> 00:31:26.400
The thing that I really need to understand is that59100:31:26.440 --> 00:31:30.519
you're just realizing you were sexually abused as part of59200:31:30.519 --> 00:31:35.720
your domestic violence portfolio. So that dynamic is really important.59300:31:35.799 --> 00:31:40.799
I outlargely think the national organizations that work to oversee59400:31:40.839 --> 00:31:43.920
the domestic violence movement need to do a much better59500:31:44.039 --> 00:31:48.880
job in accrediting facilities, and that includes emotional and physical59600:31:48.920 --> 00:31:53.079
safety of domestic violence shelters so survivors can know with59700:31:53.200 --> 00:31:55.960
like a you know with some certainty that these are59800:31:56.039 --> 00:31:58.960
programs that are that are going to be there for59900:31:59.000 --> 00:32:01.720
me in the right way, because I do think there60000:32:01.720 --> 00:32:04.039
are bad actors. I mean, I've heard of programs that60100:32:04.160 --> 00:32:06.519
if you leave and return to your abuser, you're not60200:32:06.599 --> 00:32:10.160
welcome back for six months. And I don't understand as60300:32:10.200 --> 00:32:13.359
a person working in this space, I don't understand that. Yeah,60400:32:13.759 --> 00:32:17.599
I don't understand ninety days days. I don't understand you60500:32:17.599 --> 00:32:20.920
know you're on your last and final I don't understand,60600:32:20.960 --> 00:32:22.880
and believe me, some of those things happen at my60700:32:22.960 --> 00:32:26.000
shelter too, and I'm on it because I don't like60800:32:26.119 --> 00:32:28.799
that dynamic. And these are human beings that are in60900:32:28.880 --> 00:32:32.279
survival mode that have experienced something horrible. Be clear about61000:32:32.279 --> 00:32:36.000
what your guidelines are, and be clear that if somebody61100:32:36.079 --> 00:32:39.119
violates those guidelines there are consequences to that. You also61200:32:39.160 --> 00:32:41.680
need to understand where that person's coming from. And whenever61300:32:41.759 --> 00:32:44.400
I go to our residential campus and I have conversations61400:32:44.400 --> 00:32:48.039
with survivors, they often want to tell me, you know, hey,61500:32:48.400 --> 00:32:52.119
there's drug use here. Yeah, I know that, right, there's61600:32:52.200 --> 00:32:54.759
alcohol use there, even though there's not supposed to be.61700:32:55.240 --> 00:32:57.559
We do our best to mitigate that. But I also61800:32:57.680 --> 00:33:00.359
understand the population and we're working with this sometimes on61900:33:00.400 --> 00:33:04.039
those things to survive. But my question far and away62000:33:04.039 --> 00:33:06.880
with survivors, and this can be true for anybody kind62100:33:06.880 --> 00:33:08.680
of in a position where you don't work with survivors62200:33:08.680 --> 00:33:11.359
every day but you're very important to their journey, is62300:33:11.759 --> 00:33:14.720
what's next for you? Like we can talk all day62400:33:14.720 --> 00:33:17.000
about the fact your roommate's kind of messy, that the62500:33:17.079 --> 00:33:19.400
kitchen isn't as clean as you'd like it, that da62600:33:19.480 --> 00:33:21.799
da da da da da, or do you feel safe?62700:33:21.960 --> 00:33:24.079
That's the number one thing right. If not, let's talk62800:33:24.079 --> 00:33:26.960
about that. But what's next for you? Because shelters are62900:33:27.000 --> 00:33:29.640
never designed to be your long term plan, right, They're63000:33:29.640 --> 00:33:31.599
designed to be a stepping stone to get you to63100:33:31.640 --> 00:33:34.519
somewhere better. And I think far and away in this movement,63200:33:34.559 --> 00:33:37.559
we don't do a good enough job of realizing did63300:33:37.559 --> 00:33:40.480
we get people to someplace better? Are they better off63400:33:40.920 --> 00:33:43.839
after a residential experience than they were before? And so63500:33:44.279 --> 00:33:46.319
there's a lot of there's a lot of things you63600:33:46.359 --> 00:33:49.640
can do, but really the intention needs to come from63700:33:49.720 --> 00:33:52.440
the person sitting in the CEO seat for that agency63800:33:53.079 --> 00:33:55.079
of how you are going to operate and how you63900:33:55.160 --> 00:33:58.680
are not going to be another abuser. There's a series64000:33:58.720 --> 00:34:01.759
of articles in twenty seven mean by Jennifer Guthrie, who64100:34:01.799 --> 00:34:05.079
is a professor here at UNLV, who wrote and I64200:34:05.079 --> 00:34:08.360
think it's a three part series on how navigating shelter64300:34:08.480 --> 00:34:12.199
can be like navigating another abuser. Read those articles in64400:34:12.239 --> 00:34:15.440
your agency and understand where and where you are not64500:34:15.639 --> 00:34:19.880
be vulnerable, be transparent where you are failing survivors. Because64600:34:20.159 --> 00:34:22.280
I can tell you I'm very proud of the agency64700:34:22.320 --> 00:34:25.519
I run, we oftentimes can fall short of that mandate.64800:34:25.920 --> 00:34:27.800
So before we go.64900:34:28.519 --> 00:34:31.679
What are some tips or advice you would offer someone65000:34:31.679 --> 00:34:34.559
who sees their friend, a loved one, a coworker in65100:34:34.599 --> 00:34:37.800
a situation that they think fits the definition of domestic65200:34:37.840 --> 00:34:40.079
violence and they want to help. The situation seems to65300:34:40.079 --> 00:34:42.840
be escalating, they want to do something to help.65400:34:43.000 --> 00:34:46.639
Yeah, yep. So if you're a friend or family member,65500:34:47.159 --> 00:34:49.360
the first thing I'm going to tell you not to65600:34:49.440 --> 00:34:53.159
do is tell that survivor they need to leave the relationship.65700:34:53.320 --> 00:34:55.920
The reason for that is you're acting in the exact65800:34:55.920 --> 00:34:58.760
same way as the abuser. I know your intentions are different,65900:34:58.840 --> 00:35:00.719
and you're trying to get that person, and you love66000:35:00.760 --> 00:35:03.639
that person, but you're telling them what to do, which66100:35:03.639 --> 00:35:07.400
means you're robbing them of the ability to have their66200:35:07.400 --> 00:35:10.760
own thought process. Right. So don't do that part. And66300:35:10.800 --> 00:35:13.440
that's really hard for dads. Dads, I need you to66400:35:13.480 --> 00:35:16.239
take it down a notch. And I need you to66500:35:16.280 --> 00:35:18.760
not tell your kids what to do when they're adults, right,66600:35:18.840 --> 00:35:20.880
And I also need you not to threaten. I think66700:35:20.920 --> 00:35:22.920
I hear a lot of times, Well, I told her66800:35:23.079 --> 00:35:25.280
if she doesn't leave, this door is closed to her.66900:35:26.280 --> 00:35:28.679
Maybe not the best, Okay, So let's talk about what67000:35:28.719 --> 00:35:32.000
you should do okay. So on the survivor side, if67100:35:32.000 --> 00:35:34.719
you're seeing someone in a relationship and you're concerned about it,67200:35:35.159 --> 00:35:37.440
get them into a quiet space. Don't do this in67300:35:37.440 --> 00:35:39.480
front of everybody. Don't make a big deal of it,67400:35:39.519 --> 00:35:41.880
don't do an intervention. This is not the space in67500:35:41.920 --> 00:35:44.840
which that will work. But have just a calm conversation67600:35:44.880 --> 00:35:47.880
of I love you and I care about you. Seems67700:35:47.920 --> 00:35:50.800
like something is going on, and if you ever need me,67800:35:51.280 --> 00:35:55.199
just use broccoli twice in a sentence, and I'm available67900:35:55.199 --> 00:35:58.519
for you. Give a code word, but then just leave68000:35:58.559 --> 00:36:01.840
it at that. Because I think our intention, particularly I68100:36:01.840 --> 00:36:03.760
think as women were a little bit wired this way68200:36:03.880 --> 00:36:05.920
is like we got to get in there. We got68300:36:05.920 --> 00:36:08.559
to fix this like today. Right, we're gonna have a plan.68400:36:08.639 --> 00:36:11.880
We're not leaving until there's a full four point plan68500:36:11.960 --> 00:36:14.119
and a power point and here's how we're gonna make68600:36:14.119 --> 00:36:16.519
this happen. Right. This isn't that. This is I'm here68700:36:16.519 --> 00:36:18.400
for you, I love you, how can I help? And68800:36:18.440 --> 00:36:21.000
I'm worried about you? And use this phrase and then68900:36:21.079 --> 00:36:24.239
you've left it. And what you've done, very powerfully is69000:36:24.239 --> 00:36:27.719
in power that survivor. Survivors are the best navigators of69100:36:27.760 --> 00:36:30.320
their experience, and when people start telling them what to69200:36:30.400 --> 00:36:34.559
do again, they're just like another abuser. The more important conversation, however,69300:36:34.920 --> 00:36:38.480
is for men who recognize abusive men in their lives.69400:36:38.599 --> 00:36:42.119
This may look like the gregarious uncle who comes in69500:36:42.239 --> 00:36:46.280
and downplays your aunt at a family picnic and you69600:36:46.320 --> 00:36:49.000
know she comes in looking sad. He may be saying69700:36:49.079 --> 00:36:51.000
mean things about her. This might be your friend at69800:36:51.039 --> 00:36:53.400
the bar on Friday nights. This might be your work buddy.69900:36:53.679 --> 00:36:57.400
This can be any context of conversation pulling that person70000:36:57.480 --> 00:37:01.239
aside again privately, don't do these things publicly if you're70100:37:01.280 --> 00:37:04.440
in a respected male peer position and saying, look, I70200:37:04.519 --> 00:37:06.079
love you, I love work with you, I have a70300:37:06.119 --> 00:37:08.119
lot of respect for you, but I'm not going to70400:37:08.119 --> 00:37:12.079
tolerate the way you're talking about your girlfriend, wife, partner, whatever,70500:37:12.679 --> 00:37:16.239
insert because it's unhealthy and I'm worried about you and70600:37:16.280 --> 00:37:18.559
do you need help? But what you've done right there70700:37:18.760 --> 00:37:23.239
is you've not condoned the behavior. Too Often, what happens70800:37:23.239 --> 00:37:26.000
for the abusive men, and this could be women too,70900:37:26.079 --> 00:37:30.039
but the abuse people say things like, oh my wife71000:37:30.079 --> 00:37:32.039
is an fing da da da da da da, and71100:37:32.039 --> 00:37:35.159
then they're very slanderous about that, and they no one71200:37:35.199 --> 00:37:38.960
ever says anything to them about it, so then they believe, right,71300:37:39.920 --> 00:37:43.199
then this must be okay. What doesn't get corrected gets condoned.71400:37:43.360 --> 00:37:47.760
So respected men of other respected men have these conversations,71500:37:47.760 --> 00:37:50.880
and the Navy did a phenomenal job with education in71600:37:50.960 --> 00:37:53.079
this space. I mean, I always like to call out71700:37:53.079 --> 00:37:56.800
our military because I think the bias is like, oh, military,71800:37:56.920 --> 00:37:59.320
this big bro network, and all these horrible things happen.71900:37:59.360 --> 00:38:02.239
And yes, there are sexual assaults in the military. There72000:38:02.239 --> 00:38:05.559
are things that happen, but far and away all branches72100:38:05.599 --> 00:38:08.360
of the military have done a phenomenal job at trying72200:38:08.360 --> 00:38:12.159
to unpack and understand these things. And then, because of72300:38:12.199 --> 00:38:14.719
their chains of command and the ways in which they work,72400:38:15.079 --> 00:38:17.199
really try some things. The Navy did this with a72500:38:17.199 --> 00:38:21.679
program called MVP where respected men of enlisted men or72600:38:21.679 --> 00:38:25.679
whatever the rank system is, would call other men out72700:38:25.719 --> 00:38:28.800
like their job. They were trained. Their job was to72800:38:28.920 --> 00:38:33.079
call men out on behavior that was inappropriate for the Navy.72900:38:33.320 --> 00:38:36.039
Those kinds of things work inside and outside of the73000:38:36.039 --> 00:38:40.000
military network. Anybody that's a coach of young men and73100:38:40.039 --> 00:38:43.880
young women helping like you're a very trusted figure in73200:38:43.920 --> 00:38:47.239
their lives for young men. Football coaches sometimes are the73300:38:47.360 --> 00:38:51.039
most trusted adult partnership that they have. If that coach73400:38:51.119 --> 00:38:53.519
walks by you in the locker room when you're saying73500:38:53.519 --> 00:38:56.519
something imporrent about a woman and says nothing that has73600:38:56.519 --> 00:38:59.280
given you a green light to continue that behavior, everybody's73700:38:59.320 --> 00:39:01.480
got to stop and take this stuff seriously. Don't turn73800:39:01.519 --> 00:39:03.480
a blind eye to it. It's too easy. I know,73900:39:03.719 --> 00:39:06.119
don't want to get involved. You don't have to get involved.74000:39:06.239 --> 00:39:08.000
What you need to say is I don't like the74100:39:08.000 --> 00:39:10.639
way you're talking. I'm here for you if you need me,74200:39:10.760 --> 00:39:15.199
and I'm looking forward to you know, never hearing that again. Done, done,74300:39:15.880 --> 00:39:17.159
love it, and I've done it in a way that74400:39:17.199 --> 00:39:17.920
hasn't shamed you.74500:39:18.119 --> 00:39:19.800
Yeah, true, which can be challenging.74600:39:19.960 --> 00:39:23.440
Yeah, can be very challenging. Yeah, yeah, because it's tough.74700:39:23.519 --> 00:39:27.159
It's a challenge, especially if someone's you know, believing they're74800:39:27.320 --> 00:39:30.920
entitled to this way of talking about their significant other74900:39:31.360 --> 00:39:34.519
or acting in a certain world. It's it's hard, but75000:39:34.920 --> 00:39:38.039
really that conversation is better than what I can do75100:39:38.119 --> 00:39:43.440
in therapy. For like, adult men, respected men, holding other75200:39:43.480 --> 00:39:46.000
men accountable for their behavior, and you got to look75300:39:46.039 --> 00:39:49.800
for that behavior is critical. It's critical. And if they75400:39:49.800 --> 00:39:51.920
write you out of your life, well great, but you75500:39:52.239 --> 00:39:54.760
at least you didn't just stand by. There's a phenomenal75600:39:54.800 --> 00:39:57.960
Australian commercial. You know, Australia has a lot of the75700:39:57.960 --> 00:40:01.239
same DV patterns that we do. There's a commercial. It's75800:40:01.280 --> 00:40:03.800
a guy eating dinner with his wife in an apartment75900:40:03.880 --> 00:40:06.719
and you hear this all this commotion like next door,76000:40:06.719 --> 00:40:09.320
like a fight's going on, right, and the guy walks76100:40:09.320 --> 00:40:12.599
out of the apartment, grabs a baseball bat, knocks on76200:40:12.639 --> 00:40:14.960
the door of the where the abuse is happening, and76300:40:15.039 --> 00:40:17.840
hands the guy the baseball bat. And what the subtitle76400:40:17.880 --> 00:40:20.760
says is if you do nothing, you're doing something. And76500:40:20.960 --> 00:40:23.880
that is what people need to remember in domestic violence.76600:40:23.960 --> 00:40:26.800
If you're doing nothing on the abusive side, you are76700:40:26.840 --> 00:40:31.159
doing something. You're condoning that behavior, and that is really important,76800:40:31.480 --> 00:40:34.639
really important. And again that's where this starts and ends.76900:40:35.000 --> 00:40:37.360
It starts and ends on the abuser side. We all77000:40:37.400 --> 00:40:39.760
want to be there for the survivor's side, I will say,77100:40:39.800 --> 00:40:43.440
for folks offering help and support for survivors. For your77200:40:43.480 --> 00:40:45.840
own safety, you want to understand a couple of things.77300:40:45.960 --> 00:40:47.519
Is there a gun in the home, and is that77400:40:47.559 --> 00:40:50.199
gun locked up and who has the codes and how77500:40:50.280 --> 00:40:53.000
is it accessible? Because your chances of being killed as77600:40:53.039 --> 00:40:56.880
a bystander when just trying to help go up massively77700:40:56.920 --> 00:40:58.960
when there's a gun in the home, So understanding the77800:40:59.039 --> 00:41:01.960
dynamic of that gun are going to be critical. If77900:41:02.000 --> 00:41:03.679
there is a gun in the home and you are78000:41:03.760 --> 00:41:07.039
feeling unsafe related to that environment, the best thing you78100:41:07.039 --> 00:41:09.639
can do is get a survivor to an agency like safenest,78200:41:09.880 --> 00:41:13.239
or to a location where that abuser won't know where78300:41:13.239 --> 00:41:16.239
they are. Trust your gut, Trust your gut. Yeah, you'll78400:41:16.280 --> 00:41:20.119
never know if you under You'll never know if you overreacted,78500:41:20.599 --> 00:41:22.639
but you will certainly know if you underreacted.78600:41:23.119 --> 00:41:25.639
So before we wrap up, are there any final things78700:41:25.639 --> 00:41:27.119
that you want to share with our listeners. I know78800:41:27.159 --> 00:41:29.320
we want to be respectful of your time, ways to78900:41:29.480 --> 00:41:32.639
contact safe Nest. We have a list of resources that79000:41:32.639 --> 00:41:34.719
we share with every all our show notes and stuff,79100:41:34.760 --> 00:41:36.639
But is there anything in particular you want to share79200:41:36.960 --> 00:41:38.719
before we let you go back to your life.79300:41:39.079 --> 00:41:42.440
Safeness is a I like to think of us, and79400:41:42.480 --> 00:41:44.840
we're getting better at this every day as a learning institution.79500:41:45.039 --> 00:41:47.840
So if you've heard anything here today you want to79600:41:47.840 --> 00:41:50.280
know more about you can reach out through these guys79700:41:50.320 --> 00:41:52.639
and I will connect with you. We have a phenomenal79800:41:52.760 --> 00:41:56.360
education department if you'd like education in the workplace. If79900:41:56.360 --> 00:41:58.719
you're an HR professional and you're seeing this, we can80000:41:58.760 --> 00:42:01.840
help you navigate how to do some simple documentation that80100:42:01.880 --> 00:42:04.960
can keep your clients safe, all those kinds of things.80200:42:04.960 --> 00:42:08.800
But we all can make Clark County a much safer place.80300:42:08.800 --> 00:42:10.320
If you're from somewhere else in the country and you80400:42:10.320 --> 00:42:13.000
have a question, feel free reach out. You know, this80500:42:13.039 --> 00:42:15.320
is this is our world. We love this work and80600:42:15.599 --> 00:42:19.079
I there is so much hope in what we can80700:42:19.119 --> 00:42:21.719
do I think collectively. So I just really appreciate you80800:42:21.760 --> 00:42:24.039
guys having me on and being part of this show.80900:42:24.119 --> 00:42:27.599
We're so glad you really appreciate your time and we will.81000:42:27.440 --> 00:42:29.400
Have you back because I know I had. We asked81100:42:29.400 --> 00:42:30.039
so many questions.81200:42:30.119 --> 00:42:31.519
I know we didn't get to all of them, but81300:42:31.599 --> 00:42:33.559
we were really glad that you were here and you81400:42:33.599 --> 00:42:35.599
shared so much with us. We really do appreciate it.81500:42:35.599 --> 00:42:38.079
So thank you, Thank you, appreciate you guys.81600:42:38.320 --> 00:42:40.679
We really hoped you all enjoyed this interview and learned81700:42:40.719 --> 00:42:43.199
a lot about the state of domestic violence services. In81800:42:43.280 --> 00:42:46.440
Nevada and throughout the country. If there's anyone you'd like81900:42:46.519 --> 00:42:48.480
us to have on to interview, please reach out to82000:42:48.559 --> 00:42:51.920
us on social media at sins and Survivors or email82100:42:51.960 --> 00:42:54.119
me at Sean at sinsonsurvivors dot com.82200:42:55.000 --> 00:42:57.000
Thank you, as always for listening, and thank you to82300:42:57.039 --> 00:43:00.559
our subscribers who contributed questions to the interview. We really82400:43:00.559 --> 00:43:04.280
appreciate your support. Reminder again to leave us a review82500:43:04.280 --> 00:43:06.880
on whatever platform you're listening on and share this episode82600:43:06.880 --> 00:43:10.119
with a friend, because what happens here happens everywhere.82700:43:32.039 --> 00:43:36.199
Thanks for listening. Visit sinspod dot co, slash subscribe for82800:43:36.320 --> 00:43:40.480
exclusive bonus content and to listen ad free. Remember to82900:43:40.679 --> 00:43:44.360
like and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and threads83000:43:44.480 --> 00:43:48.079
at sins and Survivors. If you're enjoying the podcast, please83100:43:48.159 --> 00:43:50.960
leave us a review on your podcast platform of choice.83200:43:51.079 --> 00:43:55.079
You can contact us at Questions at Sinson survivors dot com.83300:43:55.360 --> 00:43:57.639
If you are someone you know as affected by domestic83400:43:57.719 --> 00:44:01.000
violence or needs support, please reach out to local resources83500:44:01.079 --> 00:44:04.000
or the National Domestic Violence Hotline. A list of resources83600:44:04.039 --> 00:44:08.599
is available on our website Sinsensurvivors dot com. SINS and Survivors,83700:44:08.639 --> 00:44:11.519
a Las Vegas true crime podcast, is research, written, and83800:44:11.559 --> 00:44:14.920
produced by your hosts, Sean and John. The information shared83900:44:14.920 --> 00:44:17.199
in this podcast is accurate at the time of recording.84000:44:17.639 --> 00:44:20.599
If you have questions, concerns, or corrections, please email us.84100:44:20.719 --> 00:44:23.119
Links to source material for this episode can be found84200:44:23.159 --> 00:44:26.719
on our website, sinsensurvivors dot com.84300:44:27.000 --> 00:44:29.960
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely84400:44:30.039 --> 00:44:34.360
those of the podcast creators, hosts, and their guests. All84500:44:34.360 --> 00:44:38.320
individuals are innocent until proven guilty. This content does not84600:44:38.440 --> 00:44:42.519
constitute legal advice. Listeners are encouraged to consult with legal84700:44:42.519 --> 00:44:43.679
professionals for guidance.
