WEBVTT
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To listen ad free, visit sinspod dot com slash subscribe
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starting at two ninety nine a month. You'll also get
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access to our exclusive bonus content episodes when you joined
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through Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Thanks for supporting the show.
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Over the past few years, we've shared dozens of stories
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of victims of domestic violence. We've discussed the challenges survivors
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face and the many times that the justice system has
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failed to protect families. And we're always asking the question
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what more can be done to prevent this? And we're
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concerned about what the experience is really like for victims
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when they ask for help.
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This week, we have a very special episode for the
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very first time on Sins and Survivors. We are bringing
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you an interview with one of the experts working on
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the front lines of the domestic violence crisis here in
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Las Vegas.
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Hi, and welcome to Sins and Survivors, a Las Vegas
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true crime podcast where we cover stories of domestic violence,
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missing persons, and unsolved cases. I'm your host Sean.
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And I'm your co host John.
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If this is your first.
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Time listening to the podcast, welcome, We're happy to have
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you here. We started the podcast in October of twenty
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twenty three, during Domestic Violence Awareness Month, to really bring
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attention to the forty plus domestic violence homicides that happen
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in Las Vegas each year, and to address some of
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the myths and realities of domestic violence, such as issues
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around stocking, orders of protection, victim blaming, and most importantly,
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to provide resources to folks who need them. We are
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very focused on getting families answers. While we often cover
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domestic violence, we also cover missing persons from the Las
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Vegas area and unsolved homicide cases. About ten percent of
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the cases we cover are from outside of the Las
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Vegas area, and most of the time when that happens,
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it because a family has approached us and asked us
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to cover their story. So over the past three years,
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we've produced nearly one hundred and fifty episodes. Include covering
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the murder of five year old Mason Domingas. His stepdad,
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Brandon Toseland, was arrested for that crime and we're all
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waiting for the trial to start next year. Many people
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may be familiar with that case because Toesland was arrested
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after Mason's mom had her young daughter sneak a note
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in her shoe to school to give to her teacher
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because the family was essentially being held captive in their home.
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We also did a four part series on Thomas Randolph,
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who is a convicted murderer. He's known as the Black Widower.
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He's been married six times and four of his wives
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are dead. And we also have our very popular multi
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part series on the mysteries of Lake Mead, missing persons,
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unidentified remains, and unsolved homicides. And this summer we're going
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to bring you even more stories from Lake Mead, so
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you don't want to miss that. At Sins and Survivors,
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we strive to bring you ethical true crime stories with
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the larger purpose of raising awareness and helping families. Please
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like and subscribe to the show so you never miss
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an episode. If you visit Sins post co slash subscribe
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for just one dollar a month, you can get all
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of our weekly episodes ad free, and for three dollars
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a month you get all that plus our additional weekly
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bonus episodes where John and I go behind the scenes
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to discuss what went into making the episode.
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This week, though, was a little bit different. We recorded
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the entire episode on video, which will be available on
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YouTube and Patreon for all of our listeners to enjoy.
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If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or some
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other platform and you're only hearing the audio, you can
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go to find us on YouTube and watch the video
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at sincepod dot com, slash YouTube. And today, as we said,
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Liz Ordenberger is here to answer our questions and questions
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from our subscribers.
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We're going to welcome Liz to the podcast in just
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a minute, but first I want to share that I've
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known Liz for at least eight years and we've worked
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together in different capacities throughout that time. And John, you
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know Liz as well from fundraisers and different events.
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Liz is an amazing person and you know so much
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about everything to do with the mestic violence. We were
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really lucky to have her on the show to have
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her answer our questions.
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Before we welcome her on, let me share her bio.
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Liz Ortenberger is the CEO of Safe Nest, which is
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Nevada's largest and most comprehensive nonprofit addressing domestic and sexual violence,
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and she's a thought leader redefining how communities prevent and
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respond to abuse for more than two decades, she has
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championed the safety of women and children, bringing bold vision
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to a field often shaped by reactive solutions. At Safenest,
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Liz leads a multi million dollar organization delivering an integrated
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continuum of care including emergency response, prevention, education, housing, legal advocacy,
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offender intervention, all designed to disrupt cycles of violence at
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their roots. Under her leadership, Safenest has expanded beyond traditional
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service delivery to address the broader epidemic through strategic partnerships
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with law enforcement, policymakers, healthcare systems, and leaders. Known for
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challenging conventional narratives, Liz advocates for a shift from punishment
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to prevention, from survivor only approaches to a system wide accountability,
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and from silence to truth telling. She is a PhD
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candidate in Public policy and Administration at Walden University and
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she holds an MBA from ie S School in Barcelona.
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All right, let's bring Liz on.
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Hey everyone, we're here with Liz. Welcome Liz, thanks for
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being here, Thank you for having me. We got some
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good feedback from some of our listeners. They're really excited
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that we were going to have you on, and I
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was just thinking, our audience is all over the country,
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all over the world. So I was thinking, to start out,
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can you just walk us through what domestic violence looks
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like in Nevada right now and where the agency you
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work for, Safe Nest fits into that picture.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely, So Nevada has historically been one of the highest
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per capita states in the country for domestic violence homicides,
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but recently the new FBI sort of leer cat data
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which we're able to dig into, also exposed that Nevada
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is the highest per capita of rates of violence perpetrated
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by an intimate partner, close friend, or family member in
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all crime categories. That includes like arson, property damage, of course, homicide.
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We already talked about physical abuse. So Nevada has an
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incredibly high rate of domestic violence happening, and then we
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have a corollary high rate of domestic violence homicides. So
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this is an incredibly lethal place to do this work.
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And anybody that knows geography of Nevada knows we're famous
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for Las Vegas, which is where eighty percent of our
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population kind of lives in Clark County, and so by
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the fact that Nevada is so lethal, Clark County is
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actually the most lethal county in the country, and the
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city of Las Vegas is the most lethal city in
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the country for domestic violence homicides.
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One of the questions we often get is really about
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the survivor and the survivor's experience. So could you talk
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a little bit about when someone reaches out to the
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DV hotline, what are they typically dealing with in that moment?
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Yeah, so, interestingly enough, we sort of dig into our
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hotline data a couple of years ago, and I think that,
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you know, for the person who doesn't live and work
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in this world constantly, the thought would be, oh, somebody
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calls the hotline once, gets the resources they need and
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then they go about their business. But actually, our average
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calls to the hotline by one client are about thirty
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We have some clients that call us over one hundred times,
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some clients that call us three, four or five times,
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but our average participant is calling us at least thirty
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times within a twelve month window. And so what are
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they dealing with? So first usually kind of looks like, hey,
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is this domestic violence right, Like, is what I'm experiencing
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as bad as I think it is? Or I'm trying
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to minimize. They're just trying to stabilize and understand what
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the relationship is that they're in. They may also be
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calling on a technical issue, maybe in arrest was made
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at their home, and they're trying to understand what the
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process is. So they're entering the window. At that point.
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What our advocates do, which is phenomenal, as they start
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to walk them through, let's do a safety plan, let's
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talk about what other resources, and they're planting all of
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these seeds of things you might need along your journey
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to exit domestic violence or whatever your journey looks like.
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And so that's what happens is we're really just start
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at the beginning with that survivor wherever they're at, and
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then we walk through what's next. And then oftentimes, like
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I said, they're calling back, they're getting more resources, they're
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trying to get more understanding, trying to understand what their
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rights are and find safety.
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I'm going to ask you next the question that you
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and I have talked about many times, but it's about
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leaving because everyone always asks why don't they just leave?
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So can you talk a little bit about what people
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are missing when they ask that question?
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Well, first of all, it's the wrong question, right. I
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think the right question will be why does that abusive
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partner think it's okay to abuse? Right? Like, where did
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we get the idea that abusing women in particular, but
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men are also abused, that abusing people in our lives
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is okay? So I would frame it that way. I
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think also, you know, because we live and breathe this work,
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we understand what society does is say, okay, you're a
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survivor of domestic violence. Why don't you leave? Why don't
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you get a temporary protection order? Why don't you find
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a job, Why don't you get the kids into their
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own house, Why don't you get stable? Why don't you
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start dating new people? Why don't you?
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Why don't you?
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Why don't you? And there's about ten thousand why don't you?
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To a survivor, we need to ask one question in
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domestic violence, and that's of the abusive partner, and why
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don't you stop abusing? That needs to be the question,
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what do we need to do to get you to
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stop abusing? Because then, guess what domestic violence stops? And
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that's really what the movement at LEAs large, I think
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has really missed fromighteen seventies on forward, and then we've
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passed all these crime bills, in particular the Omnibus Crime
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Bell of the nineteen nineties. It has really said domestic
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violence work is about the survivor and the abusive partner.
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Work is left to the criminal legal system, and that
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has not fared well, particularly for our survivors who are marginalized,
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low income, which is sort of the majority of the
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space that we work in. So yeah, so the question
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of why doesn't she just leave is really easily answered
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in this way. Women are most often murdered when they
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are getting ready to leave or in the three to
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twelve months after they have left. And our nineteenth homicide
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happened two nights ago. That was a mom trying to
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leave with her kids and she was murdered by her
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abuser and husband. Right, So, what people don't understand, in
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a great metaphor that I heard from one of my
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mentors in this space, is you know, if you're in
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a box with a fire breathing dragon, what do you
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do to survive? You make friends with the dragon. And
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that is the space a lot of our survivors have
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to live in because they don't either have the resources
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or the pathways out of that violence, or they're so
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afraid that if they leave, it is going to mean
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not only potentially their murder, but maybe the murder of
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their kids, the murder of a beloved family pet, or
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the murder of other people in their lives.
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On the podcast, we often remind people listeners, and you
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just mentioned that leaving is the most dangerous time, and
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that's the point when the risk of violence is the highest.
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So one of the questions we get is what changes
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in that moment? What makes the risk higher in that moment.
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Yeah, So when we think about abusive partners that are
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likely to murder, we have to kind of categorize abusive
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partners in different ways. But when we think about the
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category of abusive partners who are likely of committing murder,
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we are looking at extreme narcissism. Right. These are folks
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for whom they believe they have an entitled to a
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life different than the one they're living, Typically that they
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have an entitlement to be taken care of by their
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spouse or girlfriend or whatever. The dynamic is that they
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feel very much that the world needs to cater to them. Well,
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when I'm getting ready to leave or have left. I
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have said to you, Hey, this world is not about
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you and you alone, and you've lost now that power
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to control me. Well, what's the best way to get
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that power back? It's to kill you. And we have
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horrific stories of things that have happened and how these
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murders have happened, and when kids are involved, when it's
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a murder suicide, there are a lot of different dynamics
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to how that end of life piece can happen, But
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it is fundamentally about me as the abuser, the narcissist,
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and the controller in that relationship, ultimately taking all that
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control back. And whether or not that includes my life
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in a murder suicide being taken as well, I don't care,
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because that is the narcissistic sort of tendency of an
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abusive partner who will murder about.
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Mass murders and family annihilations have been in the news
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in the past couple weeks, and that's something that John
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and I have been talking about as well. Why can
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you talk a little bit about why domestic violence is
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a common factor in mass shootings?
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I guess I'll ask you.
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Yeah, great question. So part of it is the definition
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of a mass shooting is four or more people killed
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with a obviously with a firearm. When we think about
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what I just explained in terms of narcissism and an
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abusive partner, if I'm going in to kill you, I
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don't care who's around you, if that's family members, if
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that's friends, if that's a new boyfriend, whatever that dynamic
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looks like. So oftentimes in these domestic violence situations, bystanders
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are killed alongside, which elevates it to a level of
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mass shooting. But an additional argument in that space is
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when we think about the rage inside someone that would
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murder the person that they are supposed to be partnered
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with and love with or somehow connected to, whether it
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be through children or whatever. When we think about the
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rage of that person to murder that person in all
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the narcissism, that ability to carry out a larger mass
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shooting is also there, right. And so when we look
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at some of the homegrown mass shooters, like the Orlando
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nightclub shooting is one I talk about quite a bit.
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He had domestic violence all over his record. In fact,
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Bill Maher did a phenomenal sort of special on gun violence,
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and the biggest red flag is domestic violence. The problem
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is we still don't have a mature court system that's
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taking domestic violence as seriously as the outcomes are for
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mass shootings, cop killing and certainly domestic violence homicide. So yeah,
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that's the correlation. It's twofold, right. It's that if I
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have a gun and I'm narcissistic and I'm going to
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murder you, I'm going to murder whoever's around you, and
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that rage factor that I'm happy to take out, you
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know how, I for many people that looks like they've
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never proven it, specifically here in Las Vegas, but when
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you look at the dynamics of the shooter, the October
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one shooter, it is likely he was abusive and abused
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quite frankly as well, but it's likely that he was
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abusive to his partner.
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So to me, that brings up the next question I have,
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which is about warning signs. So what are the warning
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signs you see where you think this situation could turn deadly?
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What are the examples we often give but it's so
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obvious is strangulation, because there's so much correlation with that,
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as Sean has taught me. But are there other more
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like insidious, subtle cues and warning signs that you see.
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Besides like the incredibly obvious ones like strangulation, what other
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warning signs are there?
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So recently we've started trying to put together some better
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educational protocols for young women and young men in particular
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who are starting to enter those dating relationships about what
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could some early warning signs be. Because strangulation, yes, if
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we're there, we got to get you out. This is
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an escalation to homicide. The other big one is always
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a gun in the home. But if we start to
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look at the more subtle, like the gas lighting. So
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oftentimes even just saying to a young person, pick a
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topic that you both disagree on, and is your voice
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heard right or do they railroad you and gaslight you, you know,
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until you give up because you're so tired of having
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this argument. Gas Lighting is a big one. Being able
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to argue in a way that it doesn't become you know,
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it is very different. Sean and I were to get
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into an argument about some topic, We're going to have
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a professional dialogue. We're going to hear each other, We're
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going to listen. We're gonna sort of say, well, I
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agree to disagree. But if that person isn't even allowing
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that space to happen where you can have an argument
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without you then degrading the other person, trying to tear
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them down, really picking at them. These are some of
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the early warning signs, like what is that communication look like?
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And then you know it can escalate from there. In
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terms of like no one's abusive on day one. Love
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bombing is a huge one. Like I love romance novels,
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but I'm astute enough now every time I read one,
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I'm like, oh my god, this is the start of
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a very bad relationship because all you see is this
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insane love bombing and this like just massive emotional roller
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coaster of all this stuff, that kind of stuff. It's
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so exciting, especially when you're young and all the dopamine
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in your brain and all this stuff is happening. Starting
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to just add in, though, can we have a civil
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conversation about it and something we disagree on? And if
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the answer there is no, be ready to walk away,
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because I think a lot of times we start to
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think as young women, and certainly I mean I'm in
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my fifties, I probably would still make the same mistake
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as oh, I can help him, he's abusive. Because he
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was abused as a child. They're trying to use the
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excuse for their bad behavior based on their childhood. The
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fact of the matter is is everybody needs to understand
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abuse is a choice. Yes, i may have had an
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abhorrent childhood, but I'm an adult now an abuse and
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if i choose to abuse, whether that's physical, emotional, it's
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a choice. And so yes, he can choose or she
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can choose not to do that. And emotional abuse, I
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think is much more gender neutral than physical abuse. Physical
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abuse generally we kind of see it in a way
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that it's female victims and male abusers. That's about eighty
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five fifteen. But emotional abuse for young men out there
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is the same. Like can you have an argument? Can
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you have a heated argument without that person tearing you down?
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People take arguments well outside the boundaries of the argument.
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We're having a conversation about this, and all of a sudden,
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you're talking about something horrible about my physique. Right, those
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who are really the way we argue is such a
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blueprint for how we respect and treat each other. That
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would be my biggest early warning sign for folks that
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are in relationships.
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I think that's really important to remember. And definitely something
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like we always talk about talking to people when they're young,
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before they even have their first relationship, you know what
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to look for and how to model what a healthy
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relationship looks like.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, And for parents, I often say, like, watch The
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Gilmore Girls, or watch and that's if my daughter and
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I watch that, but with your son watch Stranger Things.
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Any of these shows all have dynamic, multifaceted relationships for
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which there are parts that are healthy and parts that
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are unhealthy. And then just talk about it. It doesn't
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have to be this huge thing like how did you
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feel about the way he spoke to her? You know,
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what are your thoughts on that? You know? Do you?
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You know, those are really kind of important. Just conversations
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to have with your kiddos or if you're if you're
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like a youth, you know, girl Scout troop leader, Boys
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and Girls club employee, someone like that, having conversations with
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the way people treat each other. We're so reactionary to like,
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we don't like bullies, right, Let's understand why a bully
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is bullying. Let's everybody back up. Let's have a conversation
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and understand behavior more than just reacting to the maybe
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negative outcome of behavior. I think we can get to
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a better place. And young people really need to see
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what positive relationships look like. They're so devoid of that,
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you know, and YouTube is not providing it. Neither is
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any social media outlet. And while I just said, you know,
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watching these things, those are just conversation starters. Making sure
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your home life that parents, I think this is really hard.
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You know, there's an adverse childhood experience questionnaire that we
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can all take and reflect back on the time before
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we were eighteen. We know that kids with four more
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adverse childhood experiences and I think it's a ten point
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scale are likely to have trauma as an adult. Take
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that questionnaire for your kiddo. So if you're in a
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home that you're not particularly like, you're concerned about, understand
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the trauma that your kids are absorbed. That doesn't mean
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you pack bags and leave today, but it means your
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kids are absorbing some trauma that you need to figure
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out how to mitigate. And there are a lot of
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great resources, certainly in Clark County to do that can
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call safeness and will help you navigate that. But it's
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important to know that these things are generational and there
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is a way to break that cycle.
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Almost like you have to show them like like for
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for Sean and I, we would like show a display
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to our son like that we get along, like we
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get along most of the time, but when we don't
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get along, we have to model what good fighting is too, Yes,
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like if he can be there when we have a
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fight and it's respectfully done, I think that's almost as
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important as a day at Disneyland. You have to model
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what it's like when things get hard, and that's important.
408
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It's important for your kids to see you argue. That
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is you know, I think we try to bubble wrap
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our kids, right, And I always say, you know, we
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have a lot. We had a lot of drownings in
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Las Vegas, right, and so we've got all these city
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ordinances around. You got to put a fan, you gotta
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have locking doors, you gotta have sirens, you gotta have
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all these things. And guess what, kids were still drowning.
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And now the more contemporary view is teach your babies
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how to swim, teach your babies how to float, and
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your kids are going to grow up in a world
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with people that are good, people that are bad. People
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that are abusive, people that are complicated. If you can
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model at home how we treat each other even at
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times of stress, you know, even when we like I
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have certainly, I am a single mom. I've got two kiddos.
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I have certainly snapped in the car when I can't
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figure out where I'm going and one of them is
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asking me the most asinine question about what's for dinner
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next week, Like I don't know. It's okay to have
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those moments and then say, hey, I'm really sorry I
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snapped like that I was stressed, right, and apologize right.
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Apologizing showing, especially for men, showing some of that vulnerability
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is really important. We will just have a healthier set
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of kiddos if we can all, if we can all
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do some iteration of that, whatever works in your household.
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I always say that it's important to admit when you're wrong.
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I mean not for me, because I'm not wrong, but
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for people who I'm just kidding, But for people who
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are wrong, it's important to admit, like when you recognize
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you're wrong. I do that with Nate all the time.
439
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Like recently it was Sean's birthday, I was like, bring
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the present down and i'll wrap it. And I went
441
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in my office. I didn't see it, and I gave
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my hard time about it, and he was like, nope,
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it's there. I just didn't see it. And I immediately said,
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I'm really sorry. I definitely shouldn't have said that you
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were right. I apologize I was wrong. I think that
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goes a long way. Don't be afraid to be wrong.
447
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Yeah, absolutely, I mean this direction die even like even
448
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if you physically abuse your child. Let's say you hit
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your child out of anger, right, not saying anyone who's
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done that, but it happens. Right. The research around kids'
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brain growth and the trauma related to that. When a
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parent apologizes after and says I'm so sorry whatever, right,
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don't but they take responsibility. Even in situations of abuse,
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the kids recover very very differently than if it's ignored. Right.
455
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I come from a British family, so any emotion is ignored,
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Like that's how we grow up in British families, like, oh,
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we'll just ship you off to boarding school and everything
458
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will be fine. Right, But there's a lot of studies
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to show that repression is you know, and so kids
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learn that right, like, oh, something bad happened. We just
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don't talk about it. That, particularly for boys, is so
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girls vocalize very differently. Boys will stuff it down and
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those emotions come bubbling out at times that they might
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not have control of, particularly before the age of twenty
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five when their frontal lobe isn't fully functional yet. But
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even just showing that modeling now, like I'm so sorry
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that happened, and that was on me. I made a
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horrible mistake giving them a hug, telling them you love them.
469
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The outcome of that abusive incident is very very different
470
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for that child than hit you. You go to your room
471
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and we don't talk until tomorrow morning, right, and then
472
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it's never addressed because everybody's embarrassed that it happened. Yeah,
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that it's important for folks to understand.
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I love that.
475
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I'm glad that we got to talk about what we
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can do in our own lives and what we can
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do in our own families to help address the epidemic
478
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of domestic violence in some way and give our kids
479
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some kind of protection and skills when they get older.
480
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I want to pivot a little bit to talk more
481
00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:33.279
about the system. And we were talking a little bit
482
00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:36.759
about high risk offenders and how things can turn deadly.
483
00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:38.960
So I guess this is kind of like a multi
484
00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:41.880
part question. But where is the system breaking down? Are
485
00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:46.119
we not identifying and prioritizing those dangerous, dangerous offenders? Why
486
00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:49.200
aren't we intervening earlier in those kinds of cases?
487
00:25:49.559 --> 00:25:54.039
Yeah, good questions, you know my thoughts. So in Las
488
00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:57.599
Vegas we arrest thirty percent of the time a domestic
489
00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:01.359
violence nine when one call is made. That's fine. Those
490
00:26:01.400 --> 00:26:04.880
are the cases that have probable cause, right, So there's
491
00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:09.079
signs of violence in the scene, somebody's injured in some way.
492
00:26:09.400 --> 00:26:11.400
That's the number of times we're making an arrest. So
493
00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:15.000
the first place our system makes a mistake is not
494
00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:18.279
addressing the seventy percent with non arrest. There was enough
495
00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:20.519
that happened here that a nine to one one call
496
00:26:20.680 --> 00:26:23.759
was made that family, whether they want it or not,
497
00:26:24.440 --> 00:26:27.839
some resources need to be deployed there. So what that
498
00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:30.839
could be as little as leaving a postcard behind from
499
00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:35.319
Safeness or the like agency with resources and support, a
500
00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:38.519
little reminder that when there's an arrest made, it has
501
00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:42.599
a financial impact on a home. Let's help you before
502
00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:44.759
the system has to come back. So if we can
503
00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:48.799
keep people from being justice system involved, especially low levels
504
00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:51.039
of violence. That's a win. Then we go to the
505
00:26:51.079 --> 00:26:53.440
thirty percent where an arrest is made. So the first
506
00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:56.359
breakdown is that we're using what's called an a lethality
507
00:26:56.440 --> 00:27:01.000
Assessment protocol. The LAP on scene is actually a tool
508
00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:05.079
that's meant for agencies like safeness to help survivors assess
509
00:27:05.359 --> 00:27:08.880
their safety or unsafety in a scene. It screens in
510
00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:12.880
eighty percent of abusers as high risk. Courts, if everybody's
511
00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:15.680
high risk, nobody's high risk, right swoop from that to51200:27:15.839 --> 00:27:19.759
a DALE the danger assessment. Law enforcement screens in twenty51300:27:19.759 --> 00:27:22.839
percent of abusers as high risk. That's going to start51400:27:22.880 --> 00:27:24.799
to pinpoint for the courts who they need to focus51500:27:24.839 --> 00:27:28.559
on in correlation with that, anybody that has So that's51600:27:28.559 --> 00:27:30.559
the first way to fix it. The next step is51700:27:30.559 --> 00:27:35.960
that a survivor needs to get a domestic violence forensic51800:27:36.000 --> 00:27:39.839
exam called a daffy domestic abuse forensic exam. They need51900:27:39.880 --> 00:27:42.759
to get a strangulation exam if they have been strangled,52000:27:42.799 --> 00:27:45.720
and a sexual assault exam if there's been sexual assault52100:27:45.759 --> 00:27:49.720
involved in the last three days of their time. If52200:27:49.720 --> 00:27:52.519
we don't get the medical exams, it becomes much harder52300:27:52.559 --> 00:27:56.039
to prosecute these cases when inevitably a survivor is like,52400:27:56.119 --> 00:27:58.440
I am done with this, I'm out right, But we52500:27:58.480 --> 00:28:00.960
still want to prosecute these highlights lethal offenders. So we52600:28:01.000 --> 00:28:03.720
need to collect the medical evidence and we need to52700:28:03.759 --> 00:28:06.240
tell a survivor what support medical support they need to52800:28:06.279 --> 00:28:10.039
get beyond that exam so that they're safe. So that's52900:28:10.079 --> 00:28:14.400
on scene and immediately after that domestic violence incident. So53000:28:14.519 --> 00:28:16.920
the next place, right, So in Nevada, it's then a53100:28:16.960 --> 00:28:20.839
twelve hour hold, so and arrest is made. Abusers on53200:28:20.920 --> 00:28:24.160
hold for twelve hours and then they're So then we53300:28:24.200 --> 00:28:26.640
have two different things happening. If you have the means53400:28:26.680 --> 00:28:29.720
to post bail, you're being released. If you don't have53500:28:29.839 --> 00:28:32.640
the means, or you have nowhere to go, so you53600:28:32.759 --> 00:28:34.799
have to be able to tell the court where you go,53700:28:35.119 --> 00:28:38.559
you are staying on a hold, So you're then held53800:28:38.599 --> 00:28:41.519
for two weeks. So now we've got job loss. Now53900:28:41.559 --> 00:28:46.039
we've got financial distress. So at that same time, the54000:28:46.119 --> 00:28:50.480
survivor may have contacted us for an emergency temporary protection54100:28:50.599 --> 00:28:53.480
order while they're incarcerated, or they want to get a54200:28:53.519 --> 00:28:57.359
temporary protection order. This is the second or third or54300:28:57.359 --> 00:29:01.359
fourth place of system failure. Our family court judges. We54400:29:01.400 --> 00:29:04.759
have a really high denial rate on temporary protection orders.54500:29:04.960 --> 00:29:08.359
So my first as a survivor, my first interaction beyond54600:29:08.400 --> 00:29:11.839
police with the system, and I'm denied a temporary protection order,54700:29:11.920 --> 00:29:14.079
Guess how much I want to be involved with you54800:29:14.240 --> 00:29:17.480
moving forward? Right, So one big part for Clark County54900:29:17.559 --> 00:29:23.519
is getting our family court to function appropriately, expeditiously, and55000:29:23.599 --> 00:29:26.319
with the right training of judges so that they can55100:29:26.400 --> 00:29:30.559
make better, better decisions. And that's also where high that55200:29:31.200 --> 00:29:34.599
Dale assessment is much more helpful than the LAP. And55300:29:34.599 --> 00:29:37.480
then if the case does go forward as a misdemeanor55400:29:37.599 --> 00:29:41.680
or a felony misdemeanor. You know, Nevada is a is55500:29:41.720 --> 00:29:45.279
a second Amendment state. So if you're going through with55600:29:45.359 --> 00:29:48.799
a misdemeanor domestic violence, you're going to have a jury trial.55700:29:50.359 --> 00:29:54.799
Getting finding enough drors, training yours, the whole everything that's55800:29:54.839 --> 00:29:58.000
involved with that is really complex. We have very few55900:29:58.000 --> 00:30:03.440
of them. Most everything gets played down into they'll either56000:30:03.440 --> 00:30:08.400
take a lesser charge or it gets down into simple56100:30:08.440 --> 00:30:12.279
battery and gets booked to that way. But what we're56200:30:12.319 --> 00:30:15.519
missing is the felony cases. So strangulation in Nevada is56300:30:15.519 --> 00:30:19.880
a felony offense. We have about three thousand felony cases56400:30:19.880 --> 00:30:22.599
a year. I cannot tell you, but I would tell56500:30:22.640 --> 00:30:24.720
you I think this is a part where the system fails.56600:30:24.839 --> 00:30:26.720
I can't tell you how many of those get actually56700:30:26.720 --> 00:30:29.920
tried as felony cases. What's happening a lot is those56800:30:29.920 --> 00:30:32.559
are getting pled down into misdemeanor and then they're being56900:30:32.599 --> 00:30:35.599
remanded six weeks of classes. So now I have someone57000:30:35.640 --> 00:30:39.640
with a known high risk that's getting into twenty six57100:30:39.680 --> 00:30:43.200
weeks of classes with other with misdemeanor DV when they57200:30:43.279 --> 00:30:46.160
really should be at felony DV. And that's dealt with57300:30:46.279 --> 00:30:49.640
very differently. So multiple parts of failure. And then, of57400:30:49.680 --> 00:30:53.039
course our court systems are set up to punish one person,57500:30:53.559 --> 00:30:56.640
they're not really set up to make the other person whole.57600:30:56.920 --> 00:30:59.000
And they really don't know how to deal with people57700:30:59.079 --> 00:31:01.559
that are in a relationship. So like if I get57800:31:01.640 --> 00:31:04.839
hit by a drunk driver, I am not spending Thanksgiving57900:31:04.880 --> 00:31:08.559
with that person, right, But domestic violence we're so intertwined,58000:31:08.960 --> 00:31:12.680
so the court's overall understanding of how to navigate a58100:31:12.720 --> 00:31:16.519
relationship in which by the time it gets to criminal court,58200:31:16.599 --> 00:31:20.000
there's a high likeling that that couples back together. Typically58300:31:20.519 --> 00:31:23.759
that can be because of financial reasons, that's the biggest58400:31:23.799 --> 00:31:27.440
reason we have documented, but it's also because maybe we58500:31:27.519 --> 00:31:30.799
share kids together, maybe I love you, maybe our church58600:31:30.839 --> 00:31:32.640
got involved and said we need to work through this,58700:31:32.720 --> 00:31:35.000
whatever the reason is. But the court doesn't know how58800:31:35.000 --> 00:31:37.559
to do this. The court also doesn't know how to58900:31:37.599 --> 00:31:41.799
look for systematic power and control. The court is related59000:31:41.799 --> 00:31:44.079
to the incident for which you're there. They can try59100:31:44.079 --> 00:31:46.559
to create that case that the district attorney can try59200:31:46.599 --> 00:31:49.920
to create that long standing power and control. But you know,59300:31:49.960 --> 00:31:52.440
I would ask folks with a lot more money, how59400:31:52.480 --> 00:31:55.359
did that go for you know, in the p didy cases?59500:31:55.480 --> 00:31:57.799
How does that go? In all of these cases that59600:31:57.839 --> 00:32:02.200
we see, it's they don't leave the survivor the survivors59700:32:02.240 --> 00:32:06.359
somehow unworthy of their support. And in most of our59800:32:06.400 --> 00:32:09.200
cases where it's low income, it's a long drawn out59900:32:09.240 --> 00:32:12.279
process with no what is the upside for me as60000:32:12.319 --> 00:32:16.000
a low income single mom trying to prosecute my abuser.60100:32:16.200 --> 00:32:19.759
There isn't one. It's just time and then you know,60200:32:19.960 --> 00:32:23.839
I'm either believed or not believed or whatever. But okay, great,60300:32:23.839 --> 00:32:26.279
and even if he does get the charge. How long60400:32:26.359 --> 00:32:28.279
is he even going to be in jail the courts.60500:32:28.440 --> 00:32:31.039
I think we really have to think about a different60600:32:31.160 --> 00:32:35.000
way to deal with domestic violence segment it differently, really60700:32:35.000 --> 00:32:37.839
put the resources on the highly lethal folks, but there's60800:32:37.920 --> 00:32:41.119
a lot of places for improvement. And I also think,60900:32:41.519 --> 00:32:45.119
quite frankly, and this is a mistake of the Omnibus61000:32:45.160 --> 00:32:49.119
Crime Bill, we've removed survivor voice from all of this61100:32:49.680 --> 00:32:54.319
mandatory arrest, mandatory no drop prosecution. You know, we have61200:32:54.640 --> 00:32:57.599
not taken the survivor's voice in any of that, and61300:32:57.640 --> 00:33:00.599
then yet we expect you to be heavily engaged in61400:33:00.640 --> 00:33:04.279
the prosecution of this person. It just doesn't work for61500:33:04.359 --> 00:33:08.960
the reality of the situation. So I think some transformational61600:33:09.240 --> 00:33:13.680
justice available early in that process. That nine to one61700:33:13.839 --> 00:33:16.759
one call where there wasn't an arrest made is where61800:33:16.759 --> 00:33:19.160
we really can get it some low hanging fruit, and61900:33:19.200 --> 00:33:22.599
then we can focus on prosecuting those folks who are lethal.62000:33:23.119 --> 00:33:24.920
This is a good place to stop Part one of62100:33:24.960 --> 00:33:27.319
the interview. We have so much more to talk about62200:33:27.359 --> 00:33:30.440
next week, including questions from our subscribers, so please be62300:33:30.519 --> 00:33:33.000
sure you like and subscribe so you didn't miss all that.62400:33:34.079 --> 00:33:36.319
Thank you so much for listening. As a reminder, you62500:33:36.359 --> 00:33:39.960
can always find resources at sinspod dot com, slash resources62600:33:40.240 --> 00:33:42.279
and next week we'll be back with part two of62700:33:42.279 --> 00:33:45.759
our interview with Liz Ortenberger. Until then, remember what happens62800:33:45.759 --> 00:33:47.480
here happens everywhere.62900:34:09.280 --> 00:34:13.440
Thanks for listening. Visit sinspod dot co, slash subscribe for63000:34:13.559 --> 00:34:17.719
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You can contact us at questions at sinsinsurvivors dot com.63500:34:32.599 --> 00:34:34.880
If you are someone you know as affected by domestic63600:34:34.960 --> 00:34:38.239
violence or needs support, please reach out to local resources63700:34:38.320 --> 00:34:41.239
or the National Domestic Violence Hotline. A list of resources63800:34:41.280 --> 00:34:45.840
is available on our website Sinsensurvivors dot com. Sins and Survivors,63900:34:45.920 --> 00:34:48.760
a Las Vegas true crime podcast, is research, written and64000:34:48.800 --> 00:34:52.159
produced by your hosts Sean and John. The information shared64100:34:52.199 --> 00:34:54.440
in this podcast is accurate at the time of recording.64200:34:54.880 --> 00:34:57.880
If you have questions, concerns, or corrections, please email us.64300:34:57.960 --> 00:35:00.400
Links to source material for this episode can be found64400:35:00.440 --> 00:35:03.920
on our website Sends and survivors dot com.64500:35:04.239 --> 00:35:07.199
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely64600:35:07.320 --> 00:35:11.599
those of the podcast creators, hosts, and their guests. All64700:35:11.599 --> 00:35:15.599
individuals are innocent until proven guilty. This content does not64800:35:15.679 --> 00:35:19.760
constitute legal advice. Listeners are encouraged to consult with legal64900:35:19.760 --> 00:35:20.920
professionals for guidance.
