Oct. 10, 2024

DV Month Bonus - Crimelines presents - Joanna Simpson

DV Month Bonus - Crimelines presents - Joanna Simpson
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Season 2True CrimeDomestic Violence

This week, we have a special presentation from Crimelines. Charlie, the host of Crimelines, is an incredible story-teller, and she includes historical and cultural information in the cases and stories she discusses, to get to the “why” behind what happened.

For this episode, Charlie tells the story of Joanna Simpson, a mother from Berkshire, England who was brutally murdered by her husband on Halloween in 2010. It's another case where you'll have trouble believing the defense he attempted to mount.

When you’re done, head over and check out Charlie’s Podcast Crimelines at www.basementfortproductions.com, and make sure to follow them on all the socials!


Crimelines Podcast Page: https://www.basementfortproductions.com/crimelines-episodes/joannasimpson
Crimelines Source List: https://sinspod.co/crimelinessources

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WEBVTT

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To listen ad free visit sinspod dot co slash subscribe

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through Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Thanks for supporting the show.

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Year after year, thousands of unsolved murders or missing persons

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cases take place in the United States, leaving families searching

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for answers.

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The annual Cold Case Symposium allows families to share their

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loved one story in a safe and comfortable environment that

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provides resources and mobilizes support.

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Presenting the twenty twenty four Cold Case Symposium, an assembly

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of hearts and minds determined to make.

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A difference, hosted by Purdue University, the University of North Florida,

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and Project cold Case.

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Join us as we bring together victim advocates, law enforcement professionals,

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cold case detectives, and survivors, each contributing their own personal

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perspective and lived experience.

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Project cold Case, founded in twenty fifteen, stands as a

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pillar of support for families affected by unsolved homicides. Through awareness, counseling,

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support groups, and case specific strategies, we offer both emotional

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healing and a path forward.

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This symposium is open to all families, students, advocates, academics,

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law enforcement, and community members who want to show their support,

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raise awareness, and discover the available resources. Connect with us

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on Instagram and Twitter at Case Underscore Symposium for updates

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and insights leading up to the event.

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Family members of cold case victims or missing persons are

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eligible for complementary registration through a sponsorship program. To apply,

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email me doctor Crystal Hans at Hans three at Purdue

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dot edu with your name, phone number, a brief narrative

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about your loved one and how you heard about the symposium.

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Please join us on Tuesday October twenty second and Wednesday

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October twenty third, twenty twenty four at the University of

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North Floes or virtually for our annual event spotlighting cold Cases.

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Join us for real stories.

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Real support, real resources.

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Hi, and welcome to the second of our What Happens Here,

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Happens Everywhere Domestic Violence Awareness Month bonus episodes. I'm Sean

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and with me as always is the one and only John.

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I am the only John in the room.

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This week we have a special presentation from Crimelines. Charlie,

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the host of Crimelines, is an incredible storyteller, and she

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includes historical and cultural information on the cases and stories

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she discusses to get to the why behind what happened.

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For this episode, Charlie tells the story of Joanna Simpson,

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a mother from Berkshire, England, who was brutally murdered by

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her husband on Halloween in twenty ten. It's another case

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where you'll have trouble believing the defense he attempted to mount.

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When you're done, head over and check out Charlie's podcast

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00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:59.599
Crimelines at www dot basementfork Productions dot com and make

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sure of follow her on all the socials.

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And now a special presentation of Crime Lines.

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Judges see a lot in their courtrooms, but when Joanna

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Simpson's estranged husband went on trial for her murder, even

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the judge couldn't hide his shock at what happened. I'm

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Charlie and welcome to Crime Lines. Welcome to crime Lines.

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In this week's episode, I want to say that for

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any Patreon or supercast supporter with a July birthday, listen

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through to the end for your shout out. After getting

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some feedback and talking with other podcasters about how they

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handle things like shout outs and announcements for events and

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things like that. I decided that I'm going to start

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running any announcements events. I'm going to things like that

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at the beginning of the episode, before the content even starts,

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and then during this portion, I won't have to do announcements,

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so you're not gonna hear me say let's jump into

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it and then have to listen to me chat about

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going to Denver or Boston or wherever the next meetup's

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going to be. And to do that to make space

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in what's called the pre role for the announcements, I'm

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going to take the birthday shout outs and move them

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to the end like other podcasters do with their Patreon

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shout outs. So that is just a format change, and

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I don't want anyone to think I didn't get the

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birthdays done just because they don't hear them. Now, just

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keep listening and we will get to them. So welcome

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to today's episode and what will hopefully be the last

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episode where you have to listen to two minutes of

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announcements before we get into the case. With this episode,

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I did use a number of sources, but I need

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to thank a UK based listener named Laura. She not

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only recommended the case, but took notes for me from

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a two part documentary called The British Airways Killer. It

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came out in February of twenty twenty four and it

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is not available for viewing outside of the UK, or

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at least not in the US. I even had someone

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try to use a VPN to get around it, but

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it didn't work. So a huge thank you goes to

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Laura for her assistance. This case starts with Joanna Simpson,

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who was born in nineteen sixty four in York, England,

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and when she was around ten, her father, Christopher Simpson,

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sold a pretty successful building business that he was part

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owner two. The sale was a financially great move and

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so Chris and his wife Diana packed up and moved

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their kids, James and Joanna, to the Isle of Man.

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For those of you who are not up on your geography,

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the Isle of Man is an island and it is

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in the Irish Sea between Britain and Ireland. Joe grew

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up on the coast in Laxi and it was a

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pretty idyllic childhood growing up in the countryside. After finishing

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the UK equivalent to high school, Joe went to Bath

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university to study business, and then in the mid nineteen

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nineties she got married. This marriage only lasted for three years,

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but it did end amicably enough. The marriage was just

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a mismatch of personalities and they didn't have kids together,

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so there wasn't a huge drama with the divorce. Even so, obviously,

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Joe was still mourning the loss of the dream of

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the marriage and the future plans she had with her husband,

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and she was feeling pretty down because of that. Her

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friend Andy suggested that she go on a trip with him.

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They would travel to South Africa for a little getaway.

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Andy worked for British Airways, so this trip would be

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very affordable because even if she had to pay for

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a flight, it wouldn't be very much. Some sources say

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that this trip was in March of nineteen ninety eight.

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I've seen other sources say it was actually in November,

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but I'm not sure how that would fit into the

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full timeline. Regardless, on that flight, and he introduced Joe

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to the other crew members, which included First Officer Robert Brown,

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who was from Edinburgh. He had grown up always wanting

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to be a pilot and he was very passionate about

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his job. He regularly did the long haul roots, so

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we're talking South Africa, San Francisco, Hong Kong. He wasn't

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flying people from London to Paris. Joe and Rob really

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hit it off and from the time they met the

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relationship was pretty serious. Joe went home telling her parents

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all about this wonderful man she had met. So just

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imagine their surprise when they meet Rob and they find

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him to be cold, aloof and somewhat rude. You know,

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when you're going to meet your girlfriend's parents for the

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first time, you would put your best foot forward, and

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if this was his best foot, they hated to think

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what is worst foot would be. Joe, however, saw something

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in him which was really part of her personality. She

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was a friendly person, got along well with people, She

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was outgoing, and she was like that because she saw

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the best in the people around her. In spite of

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her parents' apprehension over the match, things moved very quickly,

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so by September, Rob had moved into Joe's house and asket,

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which is about fifteen minutes southwest of Windsor Castle and yes,

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it is where the horse races are. It's also just

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about a thirty minute drive to Heathrow, which was very

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convenient for Rob and his work as a pilot. In November,

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the two started talking about marriage and kids, which feels

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kind of fast, but we do have to remember that

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they were in their mid thirties at this point, and

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probably to some degree they were feeling that clock ticking.

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I did see one source that said Joe had attempted

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fertility treatments during her first marriage, so it may have

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been one of those situations where they worried it would

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take a long time to get pregnant and they might

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as well start sooner rather than later. But like I said,

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I only saw one source mention that. So in December

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of nineteen ninety eight, while they were on a trip

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to Hong Kong, Rob proposed and Joe said yes. After

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the engagement, Joe's father wisely suggested that they sign a

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prenuptial agreement. Joe had quite a bit that she was

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bringing into the marriage, which included her house and a

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truck fund. I'm sure her parents' own apprehension about their

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marriage and their relationship fueled this suggestion, but Rob and

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Joe both agreed to it. Rob said he was fine

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with signing it because he didn't really care about the money.

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The pre nup would only come into play if the

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two divorced, and neither of them entered their marriage thinking

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it would eventually end. After the proposal, Rob did not

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want a long engagement. He actually suggested a February wedding,

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which was just about as soon as they could plan,

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even the small ceremony they had, so on February thirteenth,

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nineteen ninety nine, with close friends and family gathered, they married.

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They then left for their honeymoon to South Africa, which

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was the same place they had met not quite a

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year before. While they were there, Joe called her mother

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pretty upset. She had been noticing some things about Rob

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that maybe she hadn't noticed before or she just brushed off,

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but it was sticking out to her on this trip,

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how rude he was to the staff at the hotel

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and the restaurants they went to. This wasn't news to

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people who knew Rob longer than Joe did. There are

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a number of stories from his coworkers about his rude behavior,

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but it was the first time Joe was seeing him

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in this way. She told her mother that she was

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afraid she had made a mistake. After the honeymoon, the

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two returned home to ask it and if Joe was

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second guessing her decision and maybe contemplating an annulment, even

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if in the back of her mind the idea was

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quickly extinguished in April when she found out that she

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was pregnant. It ended up not taking them long at

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all to conceive. In December of that year, their son

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was born, and then seventeen months months later, their daughter

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was born. With two little ones and a husband whose

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job took him overseas frequently, it made more sense for

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Joe to stay at home and tend to what the

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kids needed. She just didn't have a husband who had

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a job that let him take off a random Tuesday

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because a kid was sick and couldn't go to daycare,

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or someone who could pick up the kids on a

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night Joe had to work late. Financially they could afford it.

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Logistically it made sense. But most of all, it was

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what Joe really wanted to do. She wanted to be

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that hands on, do what all mother, and that's what

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she was. Something else that was very important to Joe

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as an outgoing and social person, was making friends with

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other parents. She ended up with almost an open door

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policy for her friends coming over to hang out, having

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dinner together, or just stopping in for a playdate before

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naptime when Rob would be home, Joe would want to

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pull him into this social circle, but he would be

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reluctant to join in any of the socializing. He usually

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just did his own thing. But when he was forced

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to be sociable, Joe's friends saw him much the way

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her parents had rude, arrogant, and dismissive. Early on in

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their marriage, Joe would make excuses like he was shy,

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or he was tired, or he was stressed. Some of

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their friends felt like there might be a socioeconomic or

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class issue at play. They lived in a wealthy area

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and Joe had grown up that way, so most of

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her friends were also at least well to do. But

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Rob hadn't grown up that way. He grew up with

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a mom who worked at the bank and a dad

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who worked in the shipyard. Some described him as having

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a bit of a chip on his shoulder about it,

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but Joe as always tried to paint him in the

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motion most compassionate light possible. Eventually, as the years passed, though,

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Joe stopped making excuses for Rob, mainly because she couldn't.

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His rudeness escalated to where he would make fun of

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00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:19.799
her and put her down in front of people. There

227
00:14:19.879 --> 00:14:24.840
basically became nothing left for her to say to defend him,

228
00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:29.799
and after she stopped defending him publicly, Joe also stopped

229
00:14:29.960 --> 00:14:34.200
giving him a pass in private. She was done walking

230
00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:38.120
on eggshells around him to appease him. She wasn't wanting

231
00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:41.399
or expecting love or affection from Rob, so she was

232
00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:46.559
pulling away because frankly, she was done, and Rob noticed.

233
00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:49.879
Of course he did. For so long, he used Joe's

234
00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:52.759
desire for a happy marriage as a way to have

235
00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:57.519
control over her, over the home, and over their relationship.

236
00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:02.279
Once Joe stopped that or expecting it from him, and

237
00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:06.879
especially when she stopped fighting for it, he started losing power.

238
00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:11.360
Rob thought the change might be because Joe was cheating

239
00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:15.320
on him. He took to watching the log of the

240
00:15:15.399 --> 00:15:19.919
alarm codes to track when Joe got home in the

241
00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:24.480
evenings while he was away. Based on credit card transactions,

242
00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:29.200
He purchased a tracker that he later admitted he intended

243
00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:34.039
to put in Joe's car, But Joe wasn't cheating on him.

244
00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.799
The truth was that years of mistreatment will make your

245
00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:41.399
partner not want to be around you. Joe didn't need

246
00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:44.360
another man in the wings to know that she didn't

247
00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:47.960
want to be with the man she had. In January

248
00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:50.399
of two thousand and seven, just shy of their eighth

249
00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:54.159
wedding anniversary, Joe went to see a solicitor to talk

250
00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:58.080
about her options when it came to a divorce. Then

251
00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:00.960
in February, Rob was away on a trip to Hong

252
00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:04.679
Kong when he called Joe one night. She had friends over,

253
00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:09.200
thankfully because she definitely needed their support after he basically

254
00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:13.320
told her that he was having quote unquote dark thoughts.

255
00:16:13.720 --> 00:16:21.399
They included suicidal and homicidal ideation, everything from family annihilator

256
00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:25.480
type acts to crashing the plane he was supposed to

257
00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:28.360
fly back. Joe got off the phone with Rob and

258
00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:32.320
immediately called one of his friends to have them check

259
00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:35.200
in on him. If he was suicidal, she wanted the

260
00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:38.720
friend to intervene, and if he was homicidal, they needed

261
00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:44.000
to contact British Airways to stop Rob from flying. This

262
00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:47.600
friend checked on Rob and got back to Joe. Rob

263
00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:51.600
was totally fine. There was absolutely no hint of the

264
00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:55.720
things he had said to Joe. Joe's friends who were

265
00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:58.840
over at the house and witnessing this and seeing how

266
00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:02.120
upset Joe got, they saw this for what it was.

267
00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:05.920
It was a manipulation tactic. It was a desperate move

268
00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:10.119
by Rob to regain control. If Joe didn't get back

269
00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:13.160
to appeasing him and making sure he was happy, she

270
00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:17.799
would bring on all of these terrible things. But it

271
00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:21.559
was all in act. At this point, Joe realized the

272
00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:24.559
marriage was pretty much over and she wanted Rob to

273
00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:29.599
move out. He refused. Eventually he had no choice but

274
00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:33.319
to move out after an incident at the house. The

275
00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:36.720
exact date seems unclear, but roughly in July of two

276
00:17:36.759 --> 00:17:39.599
thousand and seven, Joe went out with the kids and

277
00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:42.759
she got home around ten pm. She and Rob put

278
00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:45.559
the kids to bed, and while doing so, one of

279
00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:48.880
them mentioned the people they had been with that night.

280
00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:53.599
One of the names was a man who Rob suspected

281
00:17:53.720 --> 00:17:57.640
Joe was having an affair with. So after the kids

282
00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:01.480
were in bed, Rob just started in on Joe, accusing

283
00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:05.759
her of cheating on him and starting just this big fight,

284
00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:09.839
and then he pulled out a knife. He held it

285
00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:13.359
towards her chest while holding the back of her neck.

286
00:18:14.359 --> 00:18:19.000
Joe tried to de escalate the situation by leaning on

287
00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:22.640
the one thing other than himself that he cared about.

288
00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:27.480
She told him to think about the kids. She asked

289
00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:30.799
him what would happen if he killed her, and he answered,

290
00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:33.759
you would be dead and I would be in prison.

291
00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:36.839
Whether it was the thought of prison or the thought

292
00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:40.559
of leaving his children parentless, we don't know, but Rob

293
00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:44.759
put down the knife. After things calmed down enough, Joe

294
00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:47.079
called her friend Belinda and asked her to come over.

295
00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:50.839
It was around midnight, so Belinda was really worried about

296
00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:54.880
why Joe needed her over at that time. She hurried

297
00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:57.160
to the house and Joe met her outside and told

298
00:18:57.160 --> 00:19:00.720
her what had happened. Belinda said, just did they call

299
00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:04.039
the police? But Joe didn't want to do that. If

300
00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:06.200
the police came and they went in the house and

301
00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:09.000
woke up the kids, they would be scared, and it

302
00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:12.880
would also cause them to look poorly on their father.

303
00:19:13.880 --> 00:19:16.559
Joe wanted this entire thing to have as little impact

304
00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:20.000
on the children as possible, even if that meant not

305
00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:24.400
reporting this incident. But knowing that there was safety in numbers,

306
00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:28.279
Belinda stayed the night. She and Joe locked themselves in

307
00:19:28.279 --> 00:19:31.200
a room together and waited until Rob went to sleep

308
00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:34.279
in a spare room. Then they went to sleep together

309
00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:38.079
in the same room. When they got up in the morning,

310
00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:40.440
Joe called her parents, who told her to get the

311
00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:44.480
kids and fly to the Isle of Man immediately, which

312
00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:47.880
is what they did. While there, Joe had a call

313
00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:51.519
with Rob, and she had her mom listen in. Joe

314
00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:53.680
said that they just could not exist under the same

315
00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:56.400
roof anymore after he had pulled a knife on her,

316
00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:59.640
and he told her not to tell anyone about the

317
00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:05.319
incid or it would be the worst for her. Joe

318
00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:08.920
did not report the incident in a separate police report,

319
00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:11.839
but some sources say she used it to get a

320
00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:16.440
restraining order against Rob for a year. Some other sources

321
00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:19.759
say that this was a consent order, with Rob promising

322
00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:24.160
to leave her alone, but that didn't exactly happen. He

323
00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:27.440
did move out, and the rule was that Rob couldn't

324
00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:29.920
come on the property except to drop the kids off

325
00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:34.119
after his parenting time, and Joe pretty much always had

326
00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:39.200
someone at the house to dissuade Rob from starting something,

327
00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:43.440
but he would still push it. Sometimes he would put

328
00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:46.960
one foot just inside the door just because he could,

329
00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:50.440
he would randomly drive by the house and stand on

330
00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:53.279
the edge of the yard. And this was all in

331
00:20:53.319 --> 00:20:56.519
spite of Rob finding a girlfriend almost as soon as

332
00:20:56.519 --> 00:20:59.200
they split up. I think the hint here is that

333
00:20:59.319 --> 00:21:02.039
he may not have waited until the separation to start

334
00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:05.480
seeing other people. But regardless, he had a new girlfriend

335
00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:09.960
very quickly. So he moved out and he moved on,

336
00:21:10.279 --> 00:21:12.920
but he was still not ready to settle the divorce.

337
00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:16.599
Joe and Rob separated in two thousand and seven, but

338
00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:20.480
the divorce it dragged on through two thousand and eight,

339
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:25.160
two thousand and nine, and most of twenty ten. Rob

340
00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:28.039
kept complaining that it was just unfair he was stuck

341
00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:31.359
with that prenup. Joe would be able to move ahead

342
00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:34.279
in life with her trust fund plus the house, which

343
00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:38.400
had appreciated in value. Also, Joe had opened up a

344
00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:42.319
bed and breakfast as the kids got older. That business

345
00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:46.960
was doing quite well and had rave reviews. But Rob

346
00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:49.960
was claiming that they had used a large amount of

347
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:55.000
his earnings to get that business started. It was basically

348
00:21:55.319 --> 00:21:58.640
unfair in light of all of this to have him

349
00:21:58.759 --> 00:22:03.640
quote unquote still pitched up with this pre nuptial agreement.

350
00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:09.319
At the time prenups in the UK were not viewed

351
00:22:09.400 --> 00:22:12.960
as hard and fast binding contracts. We're gonna get more

352
00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:15.720
into that in just a second, but that is a

353
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:19.160
reason Rob had to believe he could get a better

354
00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:22.960
deal than the prenup if he pushed this divorce in

355
00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:27.799
front of a judge. Joe's solicitor obviously knew this as well,

356
00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:32.359
which explains why Joe made a pretty generous settlement offer

357
00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:35.519
to Rob. It gave him more than he was entitled

358
00:22:35.559 --> 00:22:38.440
to if they stuck to the prenup, and it was

359
00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:42.799
enough of a solid offer that even his attorney told

360
00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:45.240
him to take it. It was as good as he

361
00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:48.279
could expect to get in court, and it would save

362
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:53.319
him a ton in legal fees. But Rob refused. Whether

363
00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:55.640
he thought he could get a better deal in court

364
00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:59.519
or whether dragging this out was his way of punishing Joe,

365
00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:04.839
he would not take that offer. He started making accusations

366
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:08.200
that Joe was hiding money from him, and at one

367
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:11.759
point Rob had either said something or he filed something

368
00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:15.880
that had information in it that he shouldn't have known about,

369
00:23:16.359 --> 00:23:18.759
and Joe started to wonder if she had a friend

370
00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:23.720
who was backstabbing her and passing info on to Rob.

371
00:23:24.519 --> 00:23:27.720
But then Joe found out that Rob had gotten the

372
00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:32.480
new alarm code from the children. They were young, they're

373
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:36.400
easy to convince to give information, especially to a trusted

374
00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:40.079
adult like their father. So it turned out it wasn't

375
00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:43.319
a friend telling Rob things. He was going into the

376
00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:48.079
house when she wasn't there and looking through her documents.

377
00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:53.400
Joe ended up getting hidden cameras installed in her home. Now,

378
00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:55.920
for the record, it doesn't look like Joe was hiding

379
00:23:55.960 --> 00:24:00.160
anything any more than she was cheating on him as

380
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:02.839
a woman trying to get out of a marriage from

381
00:24:02.920 --> 00:24:06.920
a husband who was doing anything he could to drag

382
00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:12.119
it out. In the spring of twenty ten, Joe found

383
00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:17.359
out that Rob's new girlfriend was pregnant. Surely, with another

384
00:24:17.480 --> 00:24:20.519
baby on the way with another woman, Rob would be

385
00:24:20.599 --> 00:24:24.240
even more motivated to settle things for everyone's sake. But

386
00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:27.519
of course it wasn't gonna be that easy. Rob was

387
00:24:27.559 --> 00:24:30.920
still insisting on taking this divorce in front of a judge,

388
00:24:31.240 --> 00:24:34.960
and their divorce date was set for early November twenty ten.

389
00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:39.759
The date ended up being pushed out this far because

390
00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:43.039
in that same year twenty ten, there was a case

391
00:24:43.079 --> 00:24:46.920
in front of the UK Supreme Court that would directly

392
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:51.559
impact Joe and Rob's divorce. It had to do with

393
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:55.759
how the UK courts should handle prenups. This case was

394
00:24:55.880 --> 00:25:00.759
rod Maker vi. Granentino. The basics of the case were

395
00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:04.279
that an investment banker married an heiress and three months

396
00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:08.200
before they got married, they signed a prenup. This prenup

397
00:25:08.599 --> 00:25:11.559
was mutual on both sides and it said that their

398
00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:16.160
property would remain separated during their marriage and of course,

399
00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:20.799
in the event they divorced. Though they married and resided

400
00:25:20.839 --> 00:25:23.960
in the UK, they were both from European countries that

401
00:25:24.119 --> 00:25:27.759
recognized prenups, so it's likely they had both assumed it

402
00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:32.039
would be binding should they divorce, and divorce they did.

403
00:25:32.359 --> 00:25:35.440
After about eight or nine years of marriage, they separated,

404
00:25:35.559 --> 00:25:38.319
and in two thousand and eight the husband wanted the

405
00:25:38.359 --> 00:25:43.000
prenup kicked out. During the marriage, he had changed jobs

406
00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:47.839
to go into academia and his salary was significantly reduced

407
00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:50.880
at that point. That was a pretty big change in

408
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:54.799
circumstances from when they got married. Plus he said his

409
00:25:54.920 --> 00:25:58.359
wife had hidden from him the extent of her wealth.

410
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:04.000
The prenup was largely disregarded in their divorce proceedings because,

411
00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:07.480
like I mentioned before, the UK courts did not view

412
00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:12.079
them as binding contracts. They were viewed as contrary to

413
00:26:12.279 --> 00:26:16.640
public policy because people should not have a contingency plan

414
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:20.400
for divorce. If that's the way you're entering a marriage,

415
00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:24.799
are you really committed to your vows? Now, for the record,

416
00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:28.200
i'm pro prenup in cases like this. That's definitely not

417
00:26:28.359 --> 00:26:32.079
my opinion. It's just what the UK courts were basing

418
00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:37.160
theirs on. So the initial judge for their divorce ordered

419
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:41.000
that the husband be given two of their houses, around

420
00:26:41.079 --> 00:26:45.960
five million pounds of the wife's inheritance plus child support.

421
00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:50.279
She appealed the decision and the Court of Appeal cited

422
00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:52.720
with her ruling that the prenups should have been given

423
00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:57.039
decisive weight in the divorce, So they basically took away

424
00:26:57.079 --> 00:27:00.960
the five million pounds giving him housing and child support

425
00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:04.039
since those were more related to him as a husband

426
00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:08.400
and a father. The money the wife had brought into

427
00:27:08.440 --> 00:27:13.279
the marriage was untouched as outlined in the prenup. So

428
00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:16.640
then he appealed it and it went to the Supreme Court.

429
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:21.319
This case would decide how prenups are viewed in UK divorces.

430
00:27:21.799 --> 00:27:25.640
Were they fully arguable or were they to be given

431
00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:31.599
decisive weight. The Supreme Court, in a majority ruling, dismissed

432
00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:35.119
the husband's appeal, stating that the prenups should be stuck

433
00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:37.960
to as long as it was freely entered into, without

434
00:27:38.039 --> 00:27:42.039
duress or fraud, and so long as it was still fair.

435
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:46.440
So there was still some room to argue should a

436
00:27:46.759 --> 00:27:52.039
heavily one sided prenup risk someone being left destitute. But

437
00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:55.039
on the whole, the UK was going to function like

438
00:27:55.240 --> 00:27:58.920
much of Europe and the United States in recognizing prenups

439
00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:03.839
as contract. This was a huge blow to Rob's side

440
00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:07.559
of the divorce. Joe had made a fair and reasonable

441
00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:11.359
offer to him beyond what he agreed to in the prenup,

442
00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:14.119
so he was going to have a hard time arguing

443
00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:18.960
against it in court. When their November twenty ten hearing happened,

444
00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:22.960
he was likely going to get just what the prenup offered,

445
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:26.599
possibly some of what Joe had offered him, but that

446
00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:29.960
was it. Joe knew this ruling was going to make

447
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:33.079
her day in court a lot easier, but she also

448
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:35.880
confided in a friend that she was worried about what

449
00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:40.640
else Rob would use to drag things out, And I

450
00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:44.400
think on her part this was a good observation. She

451
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:48.480
was seeing that it wasn't necessarily about these individual issues,

452
00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:55.440
but rather his need to exert control. On Sunday, October

453
00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:59.160
thirty first, twenty ten, so eleven days after the Supreme

454
00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:02.680
Court ruling and about a week before Joe and Rob's

455
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:06.759
court date, Joe was at home waiting on the kids.

456
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:10.480
She had taken them to the Isle of Man for

457
00:29:10.599 --> 00:29:13.200
half of their school break, and then they went with

458
00:29:13.400 --> 00:29:17.400
Rob for the second half. Joe was talking to her

459
00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:20.480
friend Hetty on the phone that day, and since the children,

460
00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:22.680
who were nine and ten at the time, had been

461
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:25.279
away for a full week, she was planning to make

462
00:29:25.359 --> 00:29:29.400
their favorite dinner and a special dessert. She was on

463
00:29:29.480 --> 00:29:32.039
the phone with Hetty when Rob texted to see if

464
00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:35.440
he could drop the kids off a little later than planned,

465
00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:39.839
and Joe agreed to a four pm drop off. But

466
00:29:39.960 --> 00:29:42.960
then at three pm, while still on the phone with Hetty,

467
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:47.119
Joe saw Rob drive up. No one was at the

468
00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:49.839
house with her that day, even though Joe liked to

469
00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:53.160
have someone around at custody exchanges, but this was the

470
00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:55.599
school break, so a lot of her friends were out

471
00:29:55.640 --> 00:29:58.960
of town. Joe asked Hetty to just stay on the

472
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:02.079
line and witness the custody exchange over the phone, and

473
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:05.599
Hetty agreed. But Rob never brought the kids up to

474
00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:10.160
the door. He just drove off. Now, Rob did weird

475
00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:13.400
things like that, just showing up driving by standing in

476
00:30:13.400 --> 00:30:16.640
the yard. So they brushed it off. I mean, if

477
00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:18.319
I was them, I would think it was some kind

478
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:21.440
of setup, like telling her the kids were going to

479
00:30:21.480 --> 00:30:23.880
be home at four, but then showing up early to

480
00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:26.640
catch her either not at home or not ready for them,

481
00:30:27.079 --> 00:30:29.440
and then he could use that in court. That's where

482
00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:32.160
my brain would have went, and so I'm not surprised

483
00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:35.119
they just brushed it off. Hetty and Joe wrapped up

484
00:30:35.119 --> 00:30:38.000
their call with plans to talk again later in the evening,

485
00:30:38.680 --> 00:30:41.680
but when Hetty called back, and when Joe's other friend,

486
00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:46.200
Belinda tried to call, Joe didn't answer. The next morning,

487
00:30:46.279 --> 00:30:49.799
on Monday, November one, two thousand and seven, Robert Brown

488
00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:53.200
called the police around eight thirty in the morning. He

489
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:56.359
said he wanted to make an appointment to come to

490
00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:59.279
the police station to report an incident that had happened

491
00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:03.359
the day for He was asked what the incident was

492
00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:07.440
and he said it was a domestic issue. He was

493
00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:11.039
told by the operator that it was their policy to

494
00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:15.200
send an officer out within the hour, but Rob said

495
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:17.759
he just wanted an appointment because he had kids with

496
00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:21.640
him and he didn't want to upset them. I'm going

497
00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:23.799
to go ahead and play part of the call for

498
00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:26.920
you which I got from the telegraph.

499
00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:29.880
Let me take the details from me, ok, then will

500
00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:31.960
I will go on to odd Ivy will book an

501
00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:35.319
appointment with you. You cause explained to me what the

502
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:36.200
situation is.

503
00:31:36.839 --> 00:31:40.720
Well, I've spoken to my lawyer and he said not

504
00:31:40.839 --> 00:31:42.319
to say anything.

505
00:31:42.440 --> 00:31:44.400
So that's why he said that.

506
00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:48.519
The incidence of a serious nature.

507
00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:51.799
Right, Well, you say serious because I need to highlight

508
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:54.319
this to the officer of how serious it is. And

509
00:31:54.359 --> 00:31:56.799
this only lies of me passing it to the officer.

510
00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:00.119
Can I ask what it is? How serious?

511
00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:06.079
H I really don't I want to see anything.

512
00:32:05.720 --> 00:32:10.799
Actually come else? Why? I mean, this is confidential, this

513
00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:12.000
is between me you.

514
00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:17.119
Well, because it's well, it's I mean, it's extremely serious

515
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:21.599
nature and.

516
00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:27.480
Obviously it's regarding with your ex partner. Yes, okay, and

517
00:32:27.640 --> 00:32:31.880
the instance occurred recently, Yes, yes, that's right. And then

518
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:34.400
you're you're both okay, are you You're not? None of

519
00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:37.039
you are harmed at all, are you?

520
00:32:36.119 --> 00:32:38.400
Well, well, we have when one.

521
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:42.960
Person is right, okay, if that person seeking any medical attention,

522
00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:44.279
do you know do they need it?

523
00:32:45.799 --> 00:32:46.400
No?

524
00:32:46.400 --> 00:32:51.599
No, And you've got children and fold as well. Yes, okay,

525
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:52.880
but they're with you at the moment and.

526
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:54.400
They're safe with me.

527
00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:59.720
Okay. Your friends, look, so they live with your girl?

528
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:04.599
Is that your girlfriend that's in the situation once? Okay,

529
00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:06.839
that's fine. So they're all okay, but you want to

530
00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:11.000
come and discuss this. You're right when you're too serious okay.

531
00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:13.880
And I'm only going to buy assumption. I'm assuming it's

532
00:33:13.880 --> 00:33:20.160
something that you have seeked because you're worried about the consequence. Listen, okay, right,

533
00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:22.480
let me take some details from you. Can I start

534
00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:23.279
with your name?

535
00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:24.519
My name is Robert Brown.

536
00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:29.440
So Rob called his lawyer, and his lawyer told him

537
00:33:29.480 --> 00:33:33.279
not to say anything, but he called anyway. He also

538
00:33:33.400 --> 00:33:38.039
said it was serious, but that no one needed medical attention.

539
00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:43.359
After Rob gave his name, an address, and then Joe's information,

540
00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:46.880
the police sent an officer out to her house for

541
00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:50.799
a welfare check. Anyway, they still had the appointment with Rob,

542
00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:53.839
but they wanted to make sure Joe was okay. First.

543
00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:57.000
When they got to her house around nine am, she

544
00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:00.720
didn't answer the door. They decided to go had enforced

545
00:34:00.920 --> 00:34:03.920
entry due to their concerns for her well being, and

546
00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:08.239
they still didn't find her anywhere in the house. However,

547
00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:12.800
they did find blood on the stairwell. The police continued

548
00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:15.519
to search Joe's house and property, which led to the

549
00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:19.239
discovery of more blood. There was some near the fireplace

550
00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:22.280
and then next to our car. There were two small

551
00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:27.360
pools of blood with the discovery of blood at Joe's house.

552
00:34:27.639 --> 00:34:30.440
When Rob showed up at the station a bit after

553
00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:34.559
ten am for his scheduled appointment, the police immediately took

554
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:38.280
him into custody. It was around the same time that

555
00:34:38.440 --> 00:34:43.559
Joe's friends started realizing something was wrong. Her housekeeper showed

556
00:34:43.599 --> 00:34:46.840
up to find police on the property. The kid's school

557
00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:50.320
called one of Joe's friends, who was the emergency contact,

558
00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:53.360
because the kids hadn't shown up for class that morning,

559
00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:56.559
and they all started calling and texting each other to

560
00:34:56.599 --> 00:34:59.719
see if anyone knew where Joanna and the kids were.

561
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:03.440
One friend reached out to Joe's mother, Diana and asked

562
00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:06.559
if she had heard from Joe that day. She hadn't,

563
00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:09.639
and the friend told her that there was yellow police

564
00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:13.400
tape around the house, but the police were not saying anything.

565
00:35:14.519 --> 00:35:19.639
On hearing this, Diana immediately said Rob must have killed her,

566
00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:22.840
but all the police would tell her over the phone

567
00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:26.159
was that the kids were okay with their father's family,

568
00:35:26.599 --> 00:35:30.840
but Joe was missing. So Diana and Joe's brother James,

569
00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:33.360
took the next flight from the Isle of Man to

570
00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:35.920
London and when they got there, they went and picked

571
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:40.800
up Joe's kids from Rob's brother. In the meantime, Rob

572
00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:45.119
was at the police station, not saying much, though he

573
00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:49.840
walked through the police station door voluntarily. He was being

574
00:35:49.880 --> 00:35:53.400
held under suspicion of murder and he was absolutely not

575
00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:57.360
free to go. But the investigators were still holding out

576
00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:02.199
hope that Joe was alive somewhere, but alive, so they

577
00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:06.519
really wanted to know where she was and Rob's response

578
00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:12.000
was no comment. This wasn't exactly what they expected, since

579
00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:18.159
Rob literally turned himself in he called them, and now

580
00:36:18.199 --> 00:36:22.039
he wanted to remain silent. They asked a few questions,

581
00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:25.199
like if Joe was injured, and he just kept replying

582
00:36:25.480 --> 00:36:29.679
no comment. They even played the recorded nine nine nine

583
00:36:29.719 --> 00:36:33.320
call and asked what he meant by it being serious,

584
00:36:33.800 --> 00:36:37.920
but that no one needed medical attention. Was that because

585
00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:44.280
someone was dead, But Rob wouldn't answer that, instead complaining

586
00:36:44.920 --> 00:36:48.280
that the operator told him the call was confidential and

587
00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:53.480
clearly it was not. All that the investigators interviewing Rob

588
00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:58.239
got from him was the overwhelming sense that this was

589
00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:04.119
an angry, angry man. Since Rob wasn't talking, the police

590
00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:07.280
went to the children, who again were just nine and

591
00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:11.599
ten at the time. They wanted to know what, if anything,

592
00:37:12.039 --> 00:37:17.039
they witnessed. The interview was conducted very carefully given their ages,

593
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:21.280
but even still, Joe's son was not able to be interviewed.

594
00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:23.920
It was much too hard for him, but her daughter

595
00:37:24.199 --> 00:37:29.039
was able to answer some basic questions. She said that

596
00:37:29.079 --> 00:37:31.840
when their dad took them home, their parents got into

597
00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:35.320
a fight and they were hitting each other, but she

598
00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:40.400
didn't actually see anything. She just heard banging, she said.

599
00:37:40.519 --> 00:37:43.159
Rob then carried Joe to the car, and the kids

600
00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:46.119
asked him to take her to the hospital, but he

601
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:50.119
wouldn't answer them. Rob had the kids get into the

602
00:37:50.199 --> 00:37:52.480
car and then he dropped them off at his house

603
00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:56.400
with his girlfriend, who I'm sure was pretty surprised the

604
00:37:56.480 --> 00:38:01.840
kids were back so quickly. Rob then left again. Rob

605
00:38:01.880 --> 00:38:04.079
came home in the morning, but the daughter said she

606
00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:08.440
did not see her mom after that. Rob's girlfriend told

607
00:38:08.440 --> 00:38:11.360
the police that he had been gone all night, getting

608
00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:14.920
home around five am. She had been pretty worried in

609
00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:18.079
those overn eight hours because the kids were crying when

610
00:38:18.119 --> 00:38:20.320
he brought them back, and all they would say was

611
00:38:20.360 --> 00:38:25.280
that they saw blood. So she had called Rob's parents,

612
00:38:25.639 --> 00:38:28.719
who still lived in Scotland, so they in turn called

613
00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:32.440
Rob's brother, who had turned out ended up calling the

614
00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:37.159
police himself that morning. He was worried about Joe's well

615
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:40.440
being just from what he heard that he called about

616
00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:45.239
forty minutes before Rob did. The following day, on November two,

617
00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:50.000
with Rob still in custody, the investigators attempted another interview.

618
00:38:50.639 --> 00:38:52.960
They told him that they were only going to talk

619
00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:59.039
to him about background information. The investigator suspected that Rob

620
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:03.039
was a narcissist, or at least had those tendencies, so

621
00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:07.000
they decided to make this interview all about Rob, and

622
00:39:07.079 --> 00:39:10.760
this approach worked. Rob was willing to talk about the

623
00:39:10.840 --> 00:39:14.719
relationship with Joe, and, more importantly, to him, the unfair

624
00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:18.039
nature of the divorce. He said she made up a

625
00:39:18.079 --> 00:39:21.400
story about him pulling a knife on her basically as

626
00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:24.599
a way to manipulate things, so she had an excuse

627
00:39:24.679 --> 00:39:28.119
for a divorce when she didn't really have a good reason.

628
00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:33.079
And then with the divorce, Joe wasn't being fair or transparent.

629
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:36.119
Rob said he found out that her trust fund was

630
00:39:36.159 --> 00:39:39.199
worth a lot more than he thought. And he claimed

631
00:39:39.239 --> 00:39:41.840
he learned this because a letter with the amount on

632
00:39:41.960 --> 00:39:45.840
it just so happened to appear on his desk. I'm

633
00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:48.360
sure it's not a paper he saw when he broke

634
00:39:48.440 --> 00:39:51.920
into her house. With Rob a little warmed up to

635
00:39:52.039 --> 00:39:55.719
this idea of talking to the investigators, they decided to

636
00:39:55.760 --> 00:39:59.360
show him some of the interview with his daughter. They

637
00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:04.519
showed him, particularly a part that showed her upset and crying.

638
00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:08.760
Rob watched it. He was told his daughter needed to

639
00:40:08.800 --> 00:40:13.079
know what happened, and then he said no comment, and

640
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:16.960
then the no comment replies continued. Rob would only talk

641
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:22.400
about Joe prior to October thirty first. After that point

642
00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:27.000
he had no comment. So the next day the police

643
00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:31.239
interviewed him again, and again he would only talk up

644
00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:34.519
to a certain point, but they did manage to push

645
00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:38.400
him to talk a little bit more about October thirty first.

646
00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:42.760
In some vague terms. He basically got up to when

647
00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:45.920
he took the kids back to Joe, and then he stopped,

648
00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:49.159
so they backed up and they tried to build up

649
00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:52.119
to it again, trying to pressure him to cross that

650
00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:56.719
invisible line he had drawn. He eventually admitted that he

651
00:40:56.800 --> 00:40:59.519
and Joe argued about the kids' school when he dropped

652
00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:03.280
them off. They then showed him photos of the blood

653
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:07.000
in her house, and Rob then asked for his attorney.

654
00:41:08.199 --> 00:41:11.360
This ended the interview, and Rob talked to his lawyer

655
00:41:11.360 --> 00:41:14.559
for about twenty to twenty five minutes before he said

656
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:17.880
he was willing to continue the interview, and when they

657
00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:21.559
started it back up, Rob had a one page written

658
00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:25.239
statement that his attorney read out loud for the sake

659
00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:30.119
of the police recording. Rob wrote that he and Joe

660
00:41:30.199 --> 00:41:32.840
had an argument about the kids schooling when he dropped

661
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:35.840
them off. He was angry because of what he called

662
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:40.679
a long history of interference with contact with his children.

663
00:41:41.679 --> 00:41:47.039
He said he lost control and pushed Joe at that point.

664
00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:50.440
He did not remember what happened next, except that Joe

665
00:41:50.519 --> 00:41:52.360
was hurt and he put her in the back of

666
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:55.079
the car. He said he dropped the kids off at

667
00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:56.960
his house and he was planning to take Joe to

668
00:41:57.000 --> 00:41:59.480
the hospital, and he didn't know why he didn't just

669
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:03.000
call him or agency services. Though we intended to bring

670
00:42:03.079 --> 00:42:06.880
Joe to the hospital, he realized that she was already dead,

671
00:42:07.679 --> 00:42:10.760
so he drove out to Windsor Great Park and he

672
00:42:10.920 --> 00:42:14.920
buried Joe's body in the woods. He said he was

673
00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:19.679
willing to lead the investigators to the spot. After his

674
00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:23.880
attorney read the statement, Rob started crying, saying that it

675
00:42:23.920 --> 00:42:27.239
was a mess and that he was not proud of himself.

676
00:42:28.519 --> 00:42:31.679
Under further questioning, more of the story came out that

677
00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:37.000
undermined Rob's assertion that the attack was unplanned and that

678
00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:40.920
he didn't remember much of it. Rob admitted that prior

679
00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:44.280
to bringing the kids back to Joe's, he had put

680
00:42:44.519 --> 00:42:49.239
a hammer in one of the children's schoolbags. As the

681
00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:51.639
kids went into the family room, he stood in the

682
00:42:51.639 --> 00:42:55.280
front hall and there was a very short argument before

683
00:42:55.400 --> 00:42:59.880
he pulled out the hammer and struck Joe several times

684
00:43:00.119 --> 00:43:03.599
on the head. He then brought her body out to

685
00:43:03.679 --> 00:43:07.400
his trunk and covered her with plastic sheeting, and then

686
00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:11.400
he went back inside. He disconnected the phone and the

687
00:43:11.440 --> 00:43:16.159
security system Joe had installed. He then took the CCTV

688
00:43:16.440 --> 00:43:20.719
receiver recorder thing with him. He loaded the kids into

689
00:43:20.760 --> 00:43:23.119
the car, saying that he was taking their mom to

690
00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:27.199
the hospital. After bringing the kids back to his house,

691
00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:32.800
Rob grabbed coveralls the disposable type crime scene investigators where

692
00:43:33.239 --> 00:43:35.880
that he had on hand for some reason, and he

693
00:43:35.920 --> 00:43:39.079
also grabbed things like duct tape and zip ties. Then

694
00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:42.840
he went out to the park to bury Joe's body. So,

695
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:47.280
if Rob didn't plan this, why did he have a

696
00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:51.079
hammer hid it in his kid's bag, And why did

697
00:43:51.159 --> 00:43:54.559
he just so happen to have plastic sheeting in his trunk?

698
00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:58.199
And speaking of that, if his first intention was to

699
00:43:58.239 --> 00:44:00.760
bring her to the hospital, and why did he put

700
00:44:00.760 --> 00:44:04.599
her in the frickin' trunk? Clearly this was not a

701
00:44:04.599 --> 00:44:08.079
spur of the moment decision. So Rob conceded that he

702
00:44:08.119 --> 00:44:11.360
did decide that day he was going to kill Joe,

703
00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:15.599
and it was after he broke due to the stress.

704
00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:19.679
But there is evidence that he planned this even a longer,

705
00:44:19.719 --> 00:44:23.480
and that evidence was in the park. Rob told the

706
00:44:23.480 --> 00:44:27.119
police where to look for Joe's body, saying that it

707
00:44:27.239 --> 00:44:29.920
was hard to get to. It was in an area

708
00:44:29.960 --> 00:44:33.159
that vehicles couldn't reach, so he had to alternate between

709
00:44:33.239 --> 00:44:37.519
carrying her and dragging her. On November fourth, they were

710
00:44:37.559 --> 00:44:41.519
able to find the spot with Rob's assistance, and it

711
00:44:41.599 --> 00:44:45.199
truly was somewhere they never would have found had he

712
00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:49.000
not led them there. The top soil had been replaced,

713
00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:53.320
packed down, and even out, with such detail that it

714
00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:59.360
looked exactly like the surrounding ground. They excavated down about

715
00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:01.440
a foot when they came to the top of a

716
00:45:01.519 --> 00:45:05.199
plastic garden box, you know the type you might store

717
00:45:05.360 --> 00:45:08.880
yard tools in. We use ours to store the cushions

718
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:12.599
from our outdoor furniture. That's the kind of box I'm

719
00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:16.239
talking about. They pulled off the cover and there they

720
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:20.920
found forty six year old Joanna Simpson's body inside a

721
00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:25.000
black bag. Also in the box where items Rob had

722
00:45:25.039 --> 00:45:28.079
said he picked up at his house, which included the

723
00:45:28.159 --> 00:45:32.320
duct tape, the coveralls, the cable ties, rubber gloves, and

724
00:45:32.719 --> 00:45:36.480
shoe covering. There was blood on some of these things

725
00:45:36.519 --> 00:45:40.320
and it would be a match for Joe. The autopsy

726
00:45:40.440 --> 00:45:43.519
was held the day after Joe's body was found, and

727
00:45:43.880 --> 00:45:47.880
she had died from severe blunt force trauma to the head.

728
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:52.039
She had been struck at least fourteen times and she

729
00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:57.880
had defensive wounds to her arms. It was that grave site, though,

730
00:45:57.920 --> 00:46:01.360
that gave the police the greatest clue as to how

731
00:46:01.480 --> 00:46:06.719
long they believed Rob had been planning Joe's murder. There

732
00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:10.480
was absolutely no way he dug that hole the night

733
00:46:10.559 --> 00:46:13.960
he killed her. For one thing, this was not a

734
00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:18.000
shallow grave. It was a full six feet deep, and

735
00:46:18.039 --> 00:46:20.760
then the dirt was put back on with enough care

736
00:46:21.320 --> 00:46:25.639
that it fully camouflaged into the area. But more than that,

737
00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:30.840
the garden box was really crammed into the hole. The

738
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:34.519
dirt had settled all around it, making it very difficult

739
00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:37.880
to pull out. It hadn't just been put there a

740
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:41.599
few nights before. It had been there for at least

741
00:46:41.719 --> 00:46:47.159
a few weeks, if not months. To the investigators, this

742
00:46:47.360 --> 00:46:50.920
was evidence of clear cut premeditation. You don't go to

743
00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:54.039
the time and effort to dig a grave weeks or

744
00:46:54.119 --> 00:46:57.320
months in advance if you don't have a plan to

745
00:46:57.480 --> 00:47:02.199
put someone in it. This next part about the gravesite

746
00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:06.239
might make your blood boil. With their mother dead and

747
00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:10.119
their father under arrest, the children were going to live

748
00:47:10.199 --> 00:47:14.159
with Joe's mother, Diana. She was willing to stay and

749
00:47:14.239 --> 00:47:18.480
ask it uproot her life just so the kids didn't

750
00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:21.400
have to uproot theirs, but they told her that they

751
00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:24.639
actually wanted to move to her house on the Isle

752
00:47:24.679 --> 00:47:29.320
of Man, so before they packed everything up, Diana offered

753
00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:31.960
to take the kids to where Joe had been found

754
00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:35.360
for a bit of a memorial and to leave some flowers.

755
00:47:36.039 --> 00:47:38.400
I don't know if you've ever been to Winter Great Park,

756
00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:43.119
but this isn't some dark and spooky forest. It's absolutely beautiful,

757
00:47:43.480 --> 00:47:46.480
and they felt that it would be a sad occasion,

758
00:47:46.599 --> 00:47:49.800
but a chance to help the children connect to their

759
00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:55.280
mother and really to what happened. Definitely not closure, but

760
00:47:55.480 --> 00:47:58.920
something close to it, and when they got out to

761
00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:04.320
the area, the children recognized it. Rob would take them

762
00:48:04.360 --> 00:48:08.599
there as recently as a week before Joe's murder, and

763
00:48:08.920 --> 00:48:12.559
there was a little spot nearby where the children would

764
00:48:12.639 --> 00:48:15.599
run around and play, and they called it their den.

765
00:48:16.679 --> 00:48:20.440
This made the investigators wonder if Rob would leave the

766
00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:24.280
kids to play in their den while he dug what

767
00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:28.960
would become their mother's grave. It is possible he did,

768
00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:31.320
and he may have taken him out there a week

769
00:48:31.400 --> 00:48:34.000
before to check on the spot and make sure it

770
00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:38.599
hadn't been discovered. But even if he didn't, why that

771
00:48:38.800 --> 00:48:42.119
spot of all spots. Why take an area where your

772
00:48:42.239 --> 00:48:46.519
children have a fun memory, where they loved to play,

773
00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:51.199
and tie it so closely to what would become their

774
00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:56.280
greatest trauma. A man with that type of thinking in

775
00:48:56.360 --> 00:49:01.599
the investigator's minds is a dangerous man. But thankfully he

776
00:49:01.679 --> 00:49:05.000
was in custody. He had confessed, and he led the

777
00:49:05.000 --> 00:49:08.639
police to the body. There was evidence of premeditation. The

778
00:49:08.679 --> 00:49:12.440
case seemed pretty open and shut, but Rob was not

779
00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:16.440
going to plead guilty, well, not to murder. His defense

780
00:49:16.599 --> 00:49:20.320
latched onto something Rob mentioned to the investigators early on.

781
00:49:21.239 --> 00:49:24.559
Rob said it was like a cup. You can only

782
00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:28.639
add so much before you hit your tipping point. And

783
00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:32.800
his cup had been poured into with legal fees and

784
00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:36.679
disagreements on schooling and court hearings and all the rest.

785
00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:42.000
Suddenly his stress spilled over. Now, the Crown didn't think

786
00:49:42.079 --> 00:49:45.519
Rob just spilled over. They believed Rob knew with the

787
00:49:45.559 --> 00:49:48.280
Supreme Court ruling that he was not going to get

788
00:49:48.320 --> 00:49:51.039
as much as he wanted in the divorce, and he

789
00:49:51.119 --> 00:49:53.960
may have ruined his chance at getting much at all

790
00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:59.800
when he turned down Joe's previous generous settlement offer. So yes,

791
00:50:00.119 --> 00:50:02.440
Rob had a lot of rage towards Joe, and that

792
00:50:02.679 --> 00:50:05.000
is why he killed her. But it wasn't in the

793
00:50:05.039 --> 00:50:08.679
heat of any moment. It was premeditated for at least weeks,

794
00:50:08.760 --> 00:50:14.000
but likely months. Rob, however, was sticking to his cup analogy.

795
00:50:14.599 --> 00:50:19.400
He pleaded guilty to manslaughter but not guilty to murder

796
00:50:19.679 --> 00:50:24.440
due to insanity. In the UK, they used the McNaughton rule,

797
00:50:24.519 --> 00:50:27.840
which dictates how this would go. First, it was the

798
00:50:27.880 --> 00:50:33.440
defense's job to prove insanity, as every defendant is assumed sane.

799
00:50:33.480 --> 00:50:35.840
From there they would have to prove at the time

800
00:50:35.960 --> 00:50:39.199
Joe was killed, Rob either didn't know the nature or

801
00:50:39.280 --> 00:50:41.800
quality of what he was doing, and if he did know,

802
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:45.519
he had to not know that it was wrong. The

803
00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:49.280
mental illness Rob had been suffering at the time, according

804
00:50:49.320 --> 00:50:54.440
to his defense expert, was an adjustment disorder. According to

805
00:50:54.559 --> 00:50:59.119
the Mayo Clinic, adjustment disorders are excessive reactions to stress

806
00:50:59.480 --> 00:51:04.039
that include negative thoughts, strong emotions, and changes in behavior.

807
00:51:04.880 --> 00:51:08.639
The reaction to a stressful change or event is more

808
00:51:08.719 --> 00:51:14.199
intense than what you would typically expect. Rob's adjustment disorder

809
00:51:14.400 --> 00:51:16.719
was triggered by all of the stress in his life,

810
00:51:16.840 --> 00:51:21.960
particularly his divorce. It made him unstable and unable to

811
00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:25.280
control himself. When the trial was held in May of

812
00:51:25.360 --> 00:51:29.320
twenty eleven, the Crown countered with their own forensic psychiatrist

813
00:51:29.639 --> 00:51:33.320
who interviewed Rob while he was in jail. He said

814
00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:36.800
that Rob was actually a resilient person who was very

815
00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:41.360
much in control. In fact, Rob's career proved that he

816
00:51:41.519 --> 00:51:45.000
was a long haul pilot, which alone is a stressful job,

817
00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:48.480
and he held it down without issue during this entire

818
00:51:48.599 --> 00:51:53.039
divorce ordeal, which had gone on for three long years.

819
00:51:53.800 --> 00:51:56.760
It looked like in his life, Rob was handling his

820
00:51:56.800 --> 00:52:00.800
stress just fine and was in control of himself. And

821
00:52:00.920 --> 00:52:04.119
even if he did have an adjustment disorder, the evidence

822
00:52:04.159 --> 00:52:06.920
showed that it was incredibly mild and would not have

823
00:52:07.039 --> 00:52:11.480
led to this level of violence. Now, Rob did take

824
00:52:11.639 --> 00:52:13.920
the stand in his own defense, which was a pretty

825
00:52:13.960 --> 00:52:18.000
surprising move, because if you're arguing that you had diminished

826
00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:20.639
capacity at the time of the crime, and then you

827
00:52:20.679 --> 00:52:23.159
get up on the stand and you see him reasonable

828
00:52:23.199 --> 00:52:26.400
and articulate and in control, it's going to be hard

829
00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:28.639
for the jury to see you in a different light.

830
00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:31.920
But Rob decided it was best if the jury heard

831
00:52:31.960 --> 00:52:35.760
from his point of view what happened in front of

832
00:52:35.800 --> 00:52:40.119
the jury, Rob denied the previous testimony about the knife incident,

833
00:52:40.199 --> 00:52:42.920
saying that Joe and her friend, the one who had

834
00:52:42.960 --> 00:52:46.719
come to spend the night with her, had made it up. Really,

835
00:52:46.880 --> 00:52:50.519
Joe was just a spoiled rich woman who pressured this

836
00:52:50.800 --> 00:52:55.159
working class Joe into signing an unfair pre nup. Now

837
00:52:55.199 --> 00:52:56.960
she was going to leave him in the lurch and

838
00:52:57.039 --> 00:53:02.719
keep from him money that should have been his Rob's testimony,

839
00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:05.920
his whole defense really was very hard for Joe's family

840
00:53:05.960 --> 00:53:09.360
and friends to listen to because they knew it wasn't

841
00:53:09.440 --> 00:53:13.320
true the stress he claimed she put him through. It

842
00:53:13.480 --> 00:53:16.280
was the other way around. From what they saw, Joe

843
00:53:16.320 --> 00:53:18.639
hadn't been holding him to the prenup. She made a

844
00:53:18.679 --> 00:53:21.719
settlement offer that was more than he would have gotten

845
00:53:21.880 --> 00:53:24.599
if they did stick to it. He's the one who

846
00:53:24.639 --> 00:53:27.239
turned it down. He was the one holding out for

847
00:53:27.400 --> 00:53:31.079
more money. He treated her like garbage, then he killed her,

848
00:53:31.239 --> 00:53:33.639
and then he twisted it in court to basically say

849
00:53:34.239 --> 00:53:37.920
she made me do it. Unfortunately, the jury did not

850
00:53:38.119 --> 00:53:41.239
hear a lot from Joe's side of things. They didn't

851
00:53:41.280 --> 00:53:44.679
hear about the time the cable to her security lights

852
00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:48.639
was cut. They didn't hear about Rob admitting that he

853
00:53:48.920 --> 00:53:52.239
bought a tracking device to put on Joe's car, and

854
00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:56.480
they didn't hear about Joe's legal filings where she called

855
00:53:56.559 --> 00:54:01.599
him a bully. For some reason, the didn't even try

856
00:54:01.679 --> 00:54:06.320
to enter many of these things to show how Rob

857
00:54:06.480 --> 00:54:11.320
was twisting it all around. The Crown instead leaned very

858
00:54:11.360 --> 00:54:14.800
heavily on the evidence that this murder was planned and

859
00:54:14.920 --> 00:54:18.840
not a moment of insanity, and it seems pretty obvious.

860
00:54:18.960 --> 00:54:22.800
He brought a hammer with him to her house, hidden

861
00:54:22.840 --> 00:54:26.199
in his kid's bag, and he left her in a

862
00:54:26.360 --> 00:54:31.360
pre dug grave. But Rob from the stand had answers

863
00:54:31.400 --> 00:54:34.000
for all of this. He testified that he was at

864
00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:36.039
his house and he was back in the shed when

865
00:54:36.079 --> 00:54:39.480
he saw the hammer. He picked it up and put

866
00:54:39.519 --> 00:54:42.320
it in his child's school bag, but he testified he

867
00:54:42.400 --> 00:54:45.920
wasn't sure why. Apparently this must be when his adjustment

868
00:54:45.920 --> 00:54:50.039
disorder kicked in and he was just working on autopilot.

869
00:54:50.800 --> 00:54:53.000
He then drove the kids to Joe's house and they

870
00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:56.920
started arguing about one of the children's medications, so he

871
00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:00.559
reached into the bag to pull out the medication, and

872
00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:04.920
that's when, according to this version of Rob's story, he

873
00:55:05.599 --> 00:55:11.119
blacked out. He remembered nothing until after Joe had been buried.

874
00:55:12.119 --> 00:55:14.599
Let's not forget that Rob had said that the fight

875
00:55:14.719 --> 00:55:17.480
was about schooling, but now he needed an excuse to

876
00:55:17.519 --> 00:55:19.880
have gone into the bag where the hammer was, So

877
00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:23.360
now the fight was about the medication. And in this

878
00:55:23.760 --> 00:55:27.840
temporary insanity where he had no control, Rob then thought

879
00:55:27.880 --> 00:55:31.599
about the security cameras and grabbed the CCTV unit, but

880
00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:34.400
of course he claimed he had no memory of grabbing it.

881
00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:37.079
He actually said he still had the unit and the

882
00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:39.840
hammer with him after he buried Joe, so he buried

883
00:55:39.960 --> 00:55:42.679
those somewhere else in the park, but they have never

884
00:55:42.719 --> 00:55:45.840
been found. And as for the grave that he already

885
00:55:45.920 --> 00:55:49.079
had dug, Rob said it wasn't a grave. He had

886
00:55:49.159 --> 00:55:52.599
dug it over a year before as a symbol of

887
00:55:52.719 --> 00:55:57.039
burying his sham of a marriage. He intended to use

888
00:55:57.079 --> 00:55:59.840
it as a place to put all of the divorce papers,

889
00:55:59.840 --> 00:56:03.280
the pleadings, and the filings. He wanted to bury it

890
00:56:03.480 --> 00:56:06.519
like a time capsule, so that he could later dig

891
00:56:06.559 --> 00:56:08.719
it up and show his kids that the divorce and

892
00:56:08.760 --> 00:56:13.760
everything that happened was really their mom's fault. So, in

893
00:56:13.960 --> 00:56:17.960
his state of temporary insanity, he just so happened to remember,

894
00:56:18.320 --> 00:56:23.360
he conveniently had a grave size hole already dug. Just

895
00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:26.559
in case you forgot the details here, this man took

896
00:56:26.599 --> 00:56:29.239
the time and effort to dig a six foot hole

897
00:56:29.880 --> 00:56:33.559
in an area owned by the Crown Estate and put

898
00:56:33.599 --> 00:56:37.239
a box in there large enough to hold an adult body,

899
00:56:37.679 --> 00:56:41.440
so that he could store paperwork that could fit in

900
00:56:41.480 --> 00:56:46.960
a filing cabinet. Rob seemingly blacked out on every detail

901
00:56:47.119 --> 00:56:52.159
except his attempts to get away with killing somebody. The

902
00:56:52.199 --> 00:56:55.320
trial was originally slated to take three weeks, but it

903
00:56:55.480 --> 00:56:58.440
ended up only taking ten days, and when the jury

904
00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:04.079
took the case to deliberate, they spent several hours discussing it. Eventually,

905
00:57:04.079 --> 00:57:07.039
according to Berkshire Live, the judge told them that he

906
00:57:07.079 --> 00:57:10.440
would accept a majority verdict. Now I have not seen

907
00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:13.440
it anywhere else that there may not have been a

908
00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:17.960
unanimous vote in this case. Majority verdicts are not used

909
00:57:17.960 --> 00:57:20.079
here in the US, but in the UK they're not

910
00:57:20.199 --> 00:57:24.159
that uncommon. If a jury cannot come to a unanimous decision,

911
00:57:24.480 --> 00:57:28.400
a ten to two or eleven to one verdict can

912
00:57:28.519 --> 00:57:31.320
be accepted by the judge. And what I mean by

913
00:57:31.400 --> 00:57:36.000
not uncommon is that it's estimated that around fifteen percent

914
00:57:36.599 --> 00:57:41.400
of all convictions were majority decisions, and that's a recent

915
00:57:41.519 --> 00:57:44.639
number from a report by Appeal, which is a wrongful

916
00:57:44.679 --> 00:57:49.400
conviction nonprofit in the UK. The benefit of majority decisions

917
00:57:49.480 --> 00:57:52.079
is that it stops the jury from being deadlocked by

918
00:57:52.280 --> 00:57:56.079
one or two outliers. There are a number of downsides,

919
00:57:56.119 --> 00:57:58.599
and maybe one day I'll get around to covering a

920
00:57:58.639 --> 00:58:02.800
wrongful conviction from a majority decision, because I got kind

921
00:58:02.840 --> 00:58:05.679
of sucked down that rabbit hole while I was researching.

922
00:58:06.599 --> 00:58:10.480
But to stay on topic today, I want to repeat

923
00:58:10.480 --> 00:58:12.920
that I only have one source that says this was

924
00:58:12.960 --> 00:58:16.760
a majority decision with a ten to two split. But

925
00:58:16.880 --> 00:58:20.760
regardless if it was unanimous or a majority decision, the

926
00:58:20.840 --> 00:58:25.159
jury reached a verdict after nearly fifteen hours of deliberation,

927
00:58:26.239 --> 00:58:31.280
Robert Brown was found not guilty of murder. He was

928
00:58:31.360 --> 00:58:35.199
found guilty of interfering with a coroner's inquest for hiding

929
00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:38.920
the body, so he was insane when he killed Joe,

930
00:58:39.159 --> 00:58:42.519
but not when he hit her body. When the verdict

931
00:58:42.599 --> 00:58:46.159
was read out, there were audible gasps in the courtroom

932
00:58:46.239 --> 00:58:50.159
and even the judge looked to be in shock, while

933
00:58:50.280 --> 00:58:53.800
Rob smiled at the verdict. Some reports characterize it as

934
00:58:53.800 --> 00:58:57.840
a smirk. Joe's family and friends left to go to

935
00:58:57.960 --> 00:59:01.760
a private room to grieve what they believe was a

936
00:59:01.880 --> 00:59:06.760
huge miscarriage of justice. Rob had convinced the jury, or

937
00:59:06.760 --> 00:59:10.039
at least ten of them, that he had killed to Joe,

938
00:59:10.639 --> 00:59:12.760
but it was kind of, sort of not his fault

939
00:59:12.920 --> 00:59:17.360
in spite of the evidence of premeditation. In a not

940
00:59:17.599 --> 00:59:20.840
guilty by reason of insanity case, the defendant could be

941
00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:25.199
sent to a hospital, put on supervised release, or just

942
00:59:25.360 --> 00:59:29.079
let go. But this case was different because Rob did

943
00:59:29.119 --> 00:59:33.320
plead guilty to something. First, he pleaded guilty to manslaughter,

944
00:59:33.480 --> 00:59:37.199
so that still stood. This gave the judge the ability

945
00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:41.320
to send him to prison regardless, and the judge, not

946
00:59:41.480 --> 00:59:44.519
the jury, was in charge of his sentence, and it's

947
00:59:44.639 --> 00:59:49.679
clear this judge did not by Robert's story. The judge

948
00:59:49.719 --> 00:59:53.480
noted that adjustment disorders rarely led to violence, and that

949
00:59:53.599 --> 00:59:57.719
Rob's adjustment disorder just so happened to clear up shortly

950
00:59:57.880 --> 01:00:02.320
after he killed Joe, convenient He also said he didn't

951
01:00:02.360 --> 01:00:05.599
believe that Rob ever planned to bring Joe to the hospital,

952
01:00:06.039 --> 01:00:07.960
and that he put the box in the ground for

953
01:00:08.039 --> 01:00:13.079
one reason to hide Joe's body. The judge also accepted

954
01:00:13.119 --> 01:00:15.719
the testimony about the knife incident that happened in two

955
01:00:15.760 --> 01:00:19.079
thousand and seven that showed Rob had been violent in

956
01:00:19.159 --> 01:00:22.239
the past, and then he handed down the sentence, and

957
01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:25.960
it was Rob's turn to be very surprised and upset.

958
01:00:26.639 --> 01:00:30.440
The maximum sentence for manslaughter if Rob was found guilty

959
01:00:30.559 --> 01:00:35.079
at trial, was thirty six years. Because he pleaded guilty

960
01:00:35.199 --> 01:00:40.199
and supposedly took responsibility, the maximum sentence was twenty four

961
01:00:40.280 --> 01:00:44.000
years for manslaughter and then two years for interfering with

962
01:00:44.079 --> 01:00:47.280
the coroner, and so a maximum of twenty six years

963
01:00:47.519 --> 01:00:50.280
was what he could get, and that's what the judge

964
01:00:50.440 --> 01:00:55.320
gave him. He cited three factors to justify giving Rob

965
01:00:55.480 --> 01:00:59.119
the maximum sentence, and those were one, he killed Joe

966
01:00:59.159 --> 01:01:03.639
in close proxiity to his children, Two he planned the murder,

967
01:01:04.119 --> 01:01:07.679
and three it took multiple days of questioning before he

968
01:01:07.800 --> 01:01:12.239
led the police to her body. Twenty six years is

969
01:01:12.280 --> 01:01:17.400
a long sentence for someone who pleaded diminished responsibility and

970
01:01:17.599 --> 01:01:22.199
had a jury believe it. Joe's family was incredibly relieved

971
01:01:22.280 --> 01:01:25.400
at the sentence. Had Rob been convicted of murder, his

972
01:01:25.519 --> 01:01:28.920
sentence probably would have been longer, but twenty six years

973
01:01:29.480 --> 01:01:32.280
was enough time for the children to grow up without

974
01:01:32.280 --> 01:01:35.639
his interference, and he would be an old man when

975
01:01:35.639 --> 01:01:39.239
he was released, hopefully old enough to be less of

976
01:01:39.280 --> 01:01:43.760
a physical threat to other women. But then the family

977
01:01:43.760 --> 01:01:46.840
found out that it wasn't going to be twenty six

978
01:01:46.920 --> 01:01:50.599
years behind bars. This wasn't the judge's call, but rather

979
01:01:50.679 --> 01:01:53.880
a change in the law. In twenty eleven, England and

980
01:01:53.920 --> 01:01:58.440
Wales's past legislation that those convicted of manslaughter would serve

981
01:01:58.519 --> 01:02:01.519
half the time behind bars and the rest on probation.

982
01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:08.119
Twenty six years very quickly turned into thirteen. Joe's family

983
01:02:08.159 --> 01:02:11.400
would have a right to have some exclusion areas of

984
01:02:11.440 --> 01:02:14.480
where rob could live, so they could say he couldn't

985
01:02:14.519 --> 01:02:17.639
live near the children, but other than that they could

986
01:02:17.679 --> 01:02:21.480
not have any other information about where he was. So

987
01:02:21.559 --> 01:02:23.800
for the next thirteen years that he was locked up,

988
01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:29.440
Joe's mother and friends became advocates, speaking out against domestic violence,

989
01:02:29.559 --> 01:02:33.960
intimate partner violence, and what they could now see was

990
01:02:34.440 --> 01:02:39.559
coercive control. They started the Joanna Simpson Foundation to work

991
01:02:39.599 --> 01:02:44.119
towards the care of children impacted by domestic violence, and

992
01:02:44.199 --> 01:02:47.440
due to their work, both Joe's mother, Diana and her

993
01:02:47.480 --> 01:02:53.320
friend Hetty were appointed CBS aka Commander of the Order

994
01:02:53.400 --> 01:02:56.519
of the British Empire. This is a very high honor

995
01:02:56.639 --> 01:03:00.960
its right under knighthood or dame hood. And in twenty

996
01:03:01.000 --> 01:03:05.119
sixteen Diana met the then Duchess of Cornwall and current

997
01:03:05.320 --> 01:03:10.239
Queen Camilla. This was the start of Queen Camilla's own

998
01:03:10.320 --> 01:03:15.760
advocacy work in regards to domestic violence. After meeting Diana,

999
01:03:15.920 --> 01:03:20.159
she recognized what a taboo topic intimate partner violence had

1000
01:03:20.199 --> 01:03:24.079
been during her lifetime and that there was a cost

1001
01:03:24.360 --> 01:03:28.320
to not talking about it. Their work over the years

1002
01:03:28.440 --> 01:03:32.360
was recognized in so many ways, but the dreaded thirteen

1003
01:03:32.480 --> 01:03:35.679
year mark was approaching in November of twenty twenty three.

1004
01:03:36.480 --> 01:03:40.960
This was not parole eligibility, this was an automatic release,

1005
01:03:41.920 --> 01:03:45.360
so ahead of it, Josa loved One started campaigning to

1006
01:03:45.480 --> 01:03:50.519
revoke the automatic eligibility for rob and send his case

1007
01:03:50.800 --> 01:03:55.119
to the Parole Board. The ability to do this came

1008
01:03:55.199 --> 01:03:59.320
from yet another change in the law. The new law

1009
01:03:59.360 --> 01:04:03.239
would allow the Justice Secretary to block the automatic release

1010
01:04:03.360 --> 01:04:07.440
of anyone who posed an ongoing risk to the public.

1011
01:04:08.559 --> 01:04:12.800
The campaign by Joe's advocates was so well publicized and

1012
01:04:13.039 --> 01:04:17.519
it was backed by some pretty influential people. It was

1013
01:04:17.599 --> 01:04:22.360
so high profile that Joe's stepbrother worried that Diana was

1014
01:04:22.400 --> 01:04:25.599
putting a target on her back and that Rob, if

1015
01:04:25.639 --> 01:04:30.440
he was released, would seek revenge, and to that, Diana

1016
01:04:30.519 --> 01:04:33.880
said she hoped he would. She was eighty four and

1017
01:04:33.920 --> 01:04:36.039
lived a good life, and if Rob killed her, he

1018
01:04:36.079 --> 01:04:38.679
would be put away forever and no one else would

1019
01:04:38.679 --> 01:04:43.360
ever be in danger. In October of twenty twenty three,

1020
01:04:44.119 --> 01:04:48.880
twenty eight days before Rob's scheduled release, just as Secretary

1021
01:04:48.960 --> 01:04:53.119
Alex Chalk blocked it, requiring Rob to go before the

1022
01:04:53.159 --> 01:04:56.280
Parle Board. The parole board would have the power to

1023
01:04:56.360 --> 01:04:59.199
determine when it was safe for him to be released.

1024
01:05:00.480 --> 01:05:03.719
Rob of course appealed, and his a legal team argued

1025
01:05:03.760 --> 01:05:07.519
that the high profile nature of the campaign and the

1026
01:05:07.760 --> 01:05:12.320
political climate around it was the real reason Alex Chalk

1027
01:05:12.559 --> 01:05:16.880
blocked the release. There was an actual evidence of Rob's

1028
01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:21.280
continuing threat to the public, but the problem for Rob

1029
01:05:21.599 --> 01:05:26.199
at this point was that there was evidence Rob had

1030
01:05:26.239 --> 01:05:31.079
not taken advantage of their rehabilitative programs offered to him

1031
01:05:31.360 --> 01:05:36.719
in prison. The Crown's wording was that he persistently refused,

1032
01:05:37.519 --> 01:05:39.760
and so if Rob wanted to tell a jury that

1033
01:05:39.840 --> 01:05:43.920
he snapped and killed someone, showing a willingness to learn

1034
01:05:43.960 --> 01:05:46.960
how to keep that from happening again would have been

1035
01:05:47.039 --> 01:05:50.639
pretty helpful. It sounds to me, in my opinion, only

1036
01:05:50.880 --> 01:05:53.519
that Rob realized he was getting an automatic release at

1037
01:05:53.519 --> 01:05:56.679
thirteen years, so he didn't see the point in putting

1038
01:05:56.679 --> 01:05:59.599
in the work or in admitting he had an issue.

1039
01:06:00.360 --> 01:06:03.280
Rob lost his appeal in February of twenty twenty four,

1040
01:06:03.400 --> 01:06:06.199
with the justice writing in his decision that there were

1041
01:06:06.280 --> 01:06:09.559
good grounds for believing Rob posed a high risk to

1042
01:06:09.639 --> 01:06:13.559
the public and would need a full assessment prior to release.

1043
01:06:15.320 --> 01:06:18.280
Rob's defense team called this a trial by media, which

1044
01:06:18.920 --> 01:06:22.840
normally I'm against, but sometimes a little media pressure to

1045
01:06:23.039 --> 01:06:26.719
correct a wrong that occurred in the courts isn't the

1046
01:06:26.760 --> 01:06:29.440
worst thing in the world. I know in places that

1047
01:06:29.599 --> 01:06:32.280
use a jury system and strongly believe in it, that

1048
01:06:32.360 --> 01:06:35.440
it's not popular to say a jury got it wrong.

1049
01:06:36.039 --> 01:06:39.360
But I'm going to say that in this case, in

1050
01:06:39.440 --> 01:06:43.519
my opinion, at least ten people bought the story of

1051
01:06:43.559 --> 01:06:48.280
a violent liar. Again, that's just my opinion. As of

1052
01:06:48.320 --> 01:06:51.079
this recording, Robert Brown is still in prison, awaiting the

1053
01:06:51.119 --> 01:06:54.760
parole process to see if he's going to be released

1054
01:06:54.800 --> 01:06:57.119
now or if he will have to serve more of

1055
01:06:57.159 --> 01:07:00.480
his sentence. I will definitely keep you up date, but

1056
01:07:00.559 --> 01:07:03.480
in the meantime, I've left a link to the Joanna

1057
01:07:03.519 --> 01:07:07.000
Simpson Foundation where you can find more information on the

1058
01:07:07.039 --> 01:07:24.199
work they're doing, as well as where to donate. And

1059
01:07:24.280 --> 01:07:28.039
it's time for July. Patreon and super Cast shout out.

1060
01:07:28.559 --> 01:07:31.320
Anyone at any tier on those platforms can get a

1061
01:07:31.360 --> 01:07:34.719
birthday shout out in their birth month. I wish I

1062
01:07:34.719 --> 01:07:37.039
could do it for my Apple subscriber supporters as well,

1063
01:07:37.079 --> 01:07:39.239
but I have no way of even knowing who you are.

1064
01:07:39.400 --> 01:07:42.760
Apple keeps it a little bit different. So I want

1065
01:07:42.760 --> 01:07:51.960
to send very happy birthday vibes to Christina Douglas, Julia, Christine, Leah, Regina,

1066
01:07:52.280 --> 01:07:55.559
and Nassim. I'm so excited to be able to give

1067
01:07:55.559 --> 01:07:58.519
you your birthday shout outs. I recognize so many of

1068
01:07:58.559 --> 01:08:02.119
your names. I feel like you've been chatting on Patreon

1069
01:08:02.599 --> 01:08:06.400
for so long now. If it is summer where you are,

1070
01:08:06.480 --> 01:08:08.400
I hope you're staying cool. If it's winter, I hope

1071
01:08:08.400 --> 01:08:12.239
you're staying warm. And regardless, I hope it's full of sunshine,

1072
01:08:12.400 --> 01:08:16.000
laughter and all of the wonderful things. So for me

1073
01:08:16.319 --> 01:08:22.840
to you. I want to issh you a very happy birthday.

1074
01:08:23.760 --> 01:08:27.960
Thanks for listening. Visit sinspod dot co, slash subscribe for

1075
01:08:28.039 --> 01:08:32.239
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1076
01:08:32.439 --> 01:08:36.119
like and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and threads

1077
01:08:36.239 --> 01:08:39.840
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1078
01:08:39.920 --> 01:08:42.680
leave us a review on your podcast platform of choice.

1079
01:08:42.840 --> 01:08:46.640
You can contact us at questions at Sinsinsurvivors dot com.

1080
01:08:47.119 --> 01:08:49.399
If you are someone you know as affected by domestic

1081
01:08:49.479 --> 01:08:52.720
violence or needs support, please reach out to local resources

1082
01:08:52.840 --> 01:08:55.720
or the National Domestic Violence Hotline. A list of resources

1083
01:08:55.760 --> 01:08:58.920
is available on our website, Sins and Survivors dot com.

1084
01:08:59.359 --> 01:09:02.800
Sins and Survivers, a Las Vegas true crime podcast, is research,

1085
01:09:02.840 --> 01:09:05.800
written and produced by your hosts Sean and John. The

1086
01:09:05.880 --> 01:09:08.319
information shared in this podcast is accurate at the time

1087
01:09:08.359 --> 01:09:11.760
of recording. If you have questions, concerns, or corrections, please

1088
01:09:11.800 --> 01:09:14.560
email us. Links to source material for this episode can

1089
01:09:14.560 --> 01:09:18.439
be found on our website, Sends and Survivors dot com.

1090
01:09:18.720 --> 01:09:21.720
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely

1091
01:09:21.800 --> 01:09:26.119
those of the podcast creators, hosts, and their guests. All

1092
01:09:26.119 --> 01:09:30.079
individuals are innocent until proven guilty. This content does not

1093
01:09:30.199 --> 01:09:34.279
constitute legal advice. Listeners are encouraged to consult with legal

1094
01:09:34.279 --> 01:09:35.439
professionals for guidance.