Love Lust Fridays Discussion - The Tragic Murder of Ashley and Dennis Prince

0:00 Hello, Sins and Survivors listeners. As you know, we normally focus on cases that deal with domestic violence and occasionally missing persons and unsolved cases. I'm your host, Sean, and with me, as always, is the one and only John. I am the only John in the room. Today, we have a very special episode for you. Jake and Michelle from Loveluss Fridays invited us on to talk about the Ashley and Dennis Prince domestic violence murder case, to dig deeper into the case and get some different expert perspectives. Michelle is a former associate family court judge and current family law attorney who has handled over five thousand domestic violence cases. Jake is well known for his podcast Love Lust, Fear and of course Love Lust Fridays, and he's also the co host of Strictly Stalking. So we're really leaning into talking with some serious domain experts.

0:48 Here. We'll link the original episode in the show notes. You can re listen to the episode on the Prince murders. We had a really in depth conversation with Michelle and Jake, really digging into a lot of the aspects of this case, and it was fascinating to get the perspective of a former judge who has pretty much seen it all in the family court system. So, without further delay, here's Jake. I'm Jake Debtulah and this is Loveless Fridays. Here we delve deeper into the topics, themes and stories featured on Loveless Fear. Today, I'm excited to welcome Sean and John, the host of Sins and Survivors Las Vegas True Crime. Their podcast uncovers Las Vegas' most disturbing true crime cases with a special emphasis on domestic violence. Sewn is an advocate with over twenty five years of experience and dedicates her efforts to supporting survivors and working with various nonprofits, while John has twenty five years in tech consulting with a passion for true crime, focusing on digital privacy and safety. Together, they reveal the hidden, darker aspects of Las Vegas. On their show, they covered the tragic case of Dennis and Ashley Prince. Ashley was involved in a custody case with her ex husband Dylan Houston. Her new husband, Dennis Prince, was her attorney in the custody case, while Dylan was represented by his father and Ashley's ex father in law, Joe Houston. Just minutes into the deposition at Dennis's law offices, Joe Houston pulls out a handgun and shoots both Ashley and Dennis to death. He then turned the gun on himself.

2:13 Also joining us as Michelle Locke, a former associate family court judge in current family law attorney with extensive experience in handling over five thousand domestic violence cases. She's here to offer her valuable perspectives and insights. Sean and John, thank you so much for joining. What was it about this particular case that made you both want to cover it and highlight some of the toxic and devastating issues that this case amplifies. So this case was really shocking, as you might imagine, but there were a couple of things about it. Many times there isn't very much coverage at all, so they'll be just like that brief coverage, but with the high profile nature of the people involved, there was some more information out there. These people were all very success full, very successful lawyers, and when it happened, we remember very well the day it happened because it happened very close to where I used to live up in Summerland, just right across the street, and initially the reporting was that perhaps there was a mass shooting in a law office in downtown Summerland, which is like a kind of a swanky, very swanky shopping area that has an office building in the center where Dennis Prince had his offices, and there was a lot of sort of panic in the area on that day. So we really wanted to dig into that and find out what happened. And it also highlights the fact that this happens at every socioeconomic level. We cover a lot of people that have low incomes, but

3:43 it happens, you know, we say in our every episode, what happens here, happens everywhere, and it's also true that what happens at one the socioeconomic level happens at all socioeconomic levels. For me, part of it was Ashley was trying to break away from the person who was abusive in her life. She was trying to do right by her family, and it became this huge, toxic, awful mess for her, And I think it just really highlights that a lot of times we as people, we like the simple solution. We want to say, just leave, just leave and move on and Ashley did. She divorced this man, but because of her children, she was always going to be connected to him in one way or the other. So even though she tried to leave, it wasn't In some ways, it's not going to be enough without her going to the court and asking for more help and more support.

4:35 Michelle, you're no stranger to any of these issues when it comes to domestic violence court, when it comes to custody battles. What would you like. To share about this particular case and why it resonated with you? For me, the facts are horrendous for so many reasons, and family law in itself is contentious when you get to custody litigation, especially post divorce. If you are on what we call in Texas a modification suit, which seeks to modify parental rights post divorce or post the original proceeding, you already have high conflict because if you're back in court after you were already there before for your original case, you don't get along. So that is makes you high conflict to start with. But what was particular about this case, and if you know how litigation works and how depositions work, what struck me as interesting for many reasons. Is that at this deposition, it took place at the new husband's office.

5:39 His wife was there, and she's a party. And typically when you have a deposition, parties are present, even if you're taking a third party witnesses deposition. And so Dad was taking the deposition in theory of his own wife against the new husband and the ex wife, his son's ex wife. The person that was missing that should have been there was the other party, Dad. Why wasn't Dad there? And I know in the legal filings in court there were allegations immediately after the shooting of he must have known, and then Dad denied that, and I understand those their legal positions. I'm just gonna tell you there are certain smell tests we use in court, and that one smells funny.

6:26 That is what I'm gonna say, because parties are almost always present at depositions, even for third persons. In this particular case, it was his mom being deposed. His ex wife was there, her new husband there, his dad was there, but he chose not to be there that day. Interesting, Yeah, for sure. That was one thing that we did talk about though during this school day before anything was confirmed in the press. Who was a victim, whether or not Ashley had been shot, whether she was dead or alive, Dylan showed up and pulled his kids out of school in the middle of the day. Yeah, and John, and I want to say that the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department did clear Dylan.

7:09 They did an investigation and they cleared him. So I just want to say that for the purposes of the podcast. But I agree with you with the smell test. He wasn't there, and then in the middle of the day he went and took his kids out of school. And I agree with you. He was cleared. Absolutely was cleared. And I'm not suggesting anything other than he was cleared, and that's what the facts are. I'm just gonna say. He's an officer of the court. He knows how the system works, he knows how depositions work, he knew what was going on. I mean, he's a think a personal injury attorney, if I recall correctly from the information, and so it is just odd that he would not be there. I'm not saying it means anything. Is just odd, really odd. It seems like Joe Houston was triggered once Dennis started questioning his wife. I would like to know the mindset where Joe Houston was. And I know this is completely least speculation at this point, but would love to know your opinion on this.

8:03 Yes, definitely speculation for sure. And it did seem like it was extremely contentious right from the beginning. So Joe said, is there any way we can resolve this for the sake of the kids? He did not receive an answer, and then he went in and started directly questioning his wife, which of course can be stressful, but it's a deposition. One of the things that we did not share in the podcast is that Joe Houston was apparently sick, so he had learned that he had prostate cancer that had spread to his bones that had returned just days before the incident occurred. So when trying to wrap my brain around what is the motivation for someone in that sort of situation, I absolutely can't imagine. I can speculate, we try not to speculate, but it does seem that was probably on his mind.

8:54 I'm sure it was, But why are you going to a deposition locked and loaded? It's not. And Joe Houston and Dennis Prince were arguing via email over the what was going to happen. At this deposition, Joe asked that Ashley not be there, and Dennis was like, you can forget it, Ashley's going to be there. But he did send him an email in all caps that was like, I demand Ashley not be there, which I think Dennis just basically laughed at what is this? What kind of demand is that to make? But it just I just think it's just one more piece of evidence, Michelle, that this had gotten way out of control. And that's the other part for me, speaking as a lawyer, one of the reasons you have independent counsel is to remove that venom, the emotional entrenchment that occurs if you're involved in your own case. I don't know why, because in this particular case, there were three attorneys, right there was the new husband, there was the father in law, and there was the son you're telling me. Between those three attorneys, not one of them sat back and said, yeah, this is a bad idea, like because most of them were probably a fact witnesses to begin with. And so for me, I'm just like, at what point did someone go Someone should have said this is a bad, bad, bad idea.

10:15 And you know what, Michelle, Joe Houston's wife, Dylan's mom had her own attorney, you know what I mean. Even this other, let's say sort of on the outside looking in, non family attorney person was even somewhat connected to this case. I don't know how it got as far as it got. Shocking to me, it was designed to explode. You've got that much animosity and then quite frankly, that much brain power. Like, no, no offensive attorneys, but I am one. When we're in depositions and we're good attorneys, we can ask questions in a deposition that will make someone extremely angry. And so if he's just been told his cancer is back, it's metastatics, so it's spread to his bones, and his wife is getting ask questions that he doesn't like, Well, that's design for a problem. I mean to me, why didn't he step aside and have the Yeah, I need to step back from this. I mean that part of your job as an attorney, so no, when you can't do it anymore.

11:15 And originally when John and I covered the case, Metro was still doing their investigation. But just recently in the last and I want to say it, towards the end of the summer, they released their report their findings and Joe, Joe fired that gun twelve times. So it wasn't like a one, two three. I don't want to get too graphic, but I mean, it wasn't like that. He got Dennis seven times, seven times, three in the back and Ashley one in the front, three in the back, and the twelfth bullet was for him in his own head. I believe there was a staff person from Dennis's office was in the in the room. She was pregnant. It must have just the horror of that is the order there. Yep, court reporter was there, lawyer was there, Catherine was there, and initially Ashley wanted to hire private security for the deposition.

12:01 Speaking of presence of mind, right, So she's the one who's not a lawyer, not an officer of the court, and she has the presence of mind to say maybe we should bring private security into this. But they canceled the private security once they found out that Dylan wasn't going to be at the deposition, because everyone expected that the violence would come from Dylan, not from Joe. All I can say is these poor children, yeah, because this is the legacy they're left with because adults couldn't be adults. It's horrific. Ashley had the foresight to understand that Dylan was a threat emotionally, mentally, physically, and otherwise. Can you speak to some of the conditions that Ashley faced during her marriage to Dylan.

12:53 So there was an incident when they were married and they were only married for four years, I think, yeah, so at one point he used a baseball bat to smash there and like smash up their home. She left shortly after that. But what we said in our intro was that she put up with years of unrelenting emotional abuse and threats. Right so, he would text her up to seventy times a day, just blowing up her phone. And Ashley's family shared some of the text messages during the trial, and they said things like prepare for a future on your knees, And there was one that said, I don't want to see you unless you're in a casket.

13:33 And there was another one that we didn't quote here that said something like, and I'll have to paraphrase it, the children would be better off without you. Very direct threats upon her life. And that was from her ex husband. Right, yeah, long before the deposition. When we talk about red flags, and jac you and I have talked about red flags before, and someone that puts that into writing is a danger. That mean, generally speaking, there's always exceptions. But he's a lawyer, his dad's a lawyer, the new husband's a lawyer, and he's putting that into writing. And he hadn't been sanctioned in any way by.

14:14 The court or the court told him to stop. But oh, he don't stopp Okay, but he didn't stop. But there was no consequences to not stopping. Well, And then what happened was, at least from what I have gathered, is that the case was transferred from Judge Henderson to the new judge, because I think Judge Henderson handled it for like two years total, but then it was transferred to a different judge and I heard her talking about it, and I remember her criticizing him about his communications, like knowing who he is, knowing it's under the watch flaw of the court, still sending these communications. And I have a case now that the communications are somewhart of this, and it's just but how do you stop someone's First Amendment?

14:54 Right? You can't stop someone from being an a hole who wants to be an a hole. But holy cow, talk about red flags of I mean, someone puts that in writing. Start watching your back and have your nest cameras on at all times and pay for the subscription because y'all it's worth it. And Michelle, you you're a parent, how do you how do you even begin to try and parent a child with someone who behaves this way? I dealt with it. I want. One of my children, who's now an adult, had a particular issue with a younger girl when he was younger. And I have three boys, and it is different raising boys in today's world than it was when my parents raise my brothers and I and I am very, very very frank with them, and I mean probably more so than most parents, because I've seen the stuff that I wish I couldn't see, stuff that I don't want my kids to see. But let me tell you what. I'm very blunt with them about the risk, the dangers, et cetera. And I was the parent.

15:57 They're under eighteen. I'm paying for their cell phone. Sorry, guys, I'm going through through it because no offense. Your prefrontal cortex is not fully developed. You don't make the right decisions yet because you're thinking with hormones and you're thinking with your physical responses, not with your executive functioning, and so it is my job to be on your tail every single day making sure you make the right decisions. The problem is when th't eighteen, they think you're still stupid and they ignore you for about four more years they figure out mom actually knew what she was talking about. But I'm very blunt, and I raised my ex husband's two girls. I was very blunt with them. I told them the risks of dating. I told them stories from the courtroom because I think it's important for them to know that it's not My kids have lived a very good life. They may tell you differently, but they have lived a very good life. That being said, because of that, they've been in protective bubble for the most part, because that's how they've grown up, and they don't understand the realities of what can go really wrong. And to some extent they listen, but it takes them a little while yet there.

17:00 I'll be real honest, Michelle, you're someone who's been in the trenches of domestic violence and seen the worst. Do your kids understand that at this point when you speak, they really need to listen because you've seen it all. So it actually has a double whammy. My ex husband, who I was married to for twenty two years, as a prosecutor and has been a prosecutor for thirty years and tried I mean, I think he had seven or eight on death row. I mean tried all the big ugly cases. And so between the two of us, they had more access to information than most youth get. Whether they listen to it or on, I don't know, but I can tell you my old er two, for the most part, don't drink, they don't do drugs. They're not partiers.

17:46 They're relatively good kids. I've got my issues with them, but they're they're good, caring kids. But they've heard the horror stories. We have not sheltered them from the realities that there is a dark side, and you have to pay attention to those warnings to know that if it doesn't pass the smell test or the other side I tell them is if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck. I don't care what you call it. It's very true. Sean and John, what are some of the takeaways that you can reveal from some of the cases that you've seen in some of the trends of steps that happened right before a tragedy like this unfolded. I think you hit on it earlier. It's really about looking for the red flags. And the thing that kills us about this one is that Ashley saw the red flag.

18:34 She lived through years long red flag warning with him, and the fact that she was going to hire security. I think you need to trust your gut. And if you see red flags and you think something's wrong here, you need to trust your gut. Don't let someone talk you out of it and say, ah, I think it's fine. John and I are also always cautious when we say this because we do not victim. So I'm going to say this and I want the people to hear it and understand that this is not a personal criticism on anything anyone did or didn't do. But in a lot of the times these situations, we have heard or seen moms, sisters, fathers say I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know what to do. I didn't know if it was a big enough deal. And to John and I, that's like heartbreaking, and what John usually says is in situations where you think someone is at risk of being murdered by their partner, you cannot overreact. You can only underreact.

19:33 And we want people to feel comfortable figuring out ways to talk to their loved ones about what they think they see is going on. I think that's the takeaway that we have in a lot of these cases, is that after it's over, the press does the interview with the mom or the sister or the dad, and they are saying things like I knew something was wrong. He always treated her badly. She she didn't want to listen to me. So it's kind of like, how do we look out for each other better when we see the red flights? Because sometimes if you're in it, you don't see it, or you don't want it. You balance it out with the other good stuff that's happening, so you don't accept it. And it's like, how do we have those conversations with each other in a productive, safe, and caring way.

20:14 So I have two takeaways. It's amazing how smart my gut has gotten as I've gotten older, And it's not because it actually got smarter, it's because I started listening to it. That is absolutely number one. The number two takeaway that I wish I'd known younger, and this is the big mistake that I think youth makes in particular, because truly wisdom comes with age. Is when everyone around you dislikes the person, there's a reason for it. It's not because they don't understand him or her, right, Oh well, they just want him, or they don't understand him like I do. No, they get him, they get her. They don't have have the rose colored glasses on. And instead of fighting the people, because those people love you and they want what's best for you, and they're trying to help young ladies. It's not jealousy. It's just not listen to your friends. When the ex wife says he's a terrible SOB, she's speaking from experience, y'all. It's not that she just all of a sudden became hateful. She knew.

21:28 Listen to them they know, or my favorite that you know, he says all his exes are crazy. Right, Oh, listen, if they say all their ex'es are crazy, I would say that's red flag number one. But that's like red flag number ninety nine by the time you get there. Oh no, she was crazy. She was or conversely, he was crazy. He was crazy, he was crazy, he was crazy. No, the common denominator is not them. You know. One of the things that all of you mentioned you have to have uncomfortable conversations to come up with healthy solutions. There's no way around this same thing. You witness a crime. I don't want to be involved, don't want to rock the boat. I don't want this drama in my life. And you see these moments when you said this earlier, Sean, I wish I would have said something. You don't want to be in that position, you don't want to be.

22:12 Would a could have, should have, especially if there's a tragedy like this. It's not victim blaming, but I think we have to help people feel more comfortable with coming forward. And even if you may lose a friend in the process, you. May lose friends. You will lose friends. But and quite frankly, the last thing you want to do is not have said something, and then you see you get the phone call a month later at six am because that person's body's been found. I've had a conversation with someone before where this was a particular issue was like, he's threatening suicide. Do I call his fan. Do I call? I said, yes, you call, because if you don't call, what are you going to do? The next day? Something happens? And if you get it wrong, oh well. But everyone is so afraid to have uncomfortable conversations these days because it's everyone wants to be politically correct. No one wants to talk bluntly about the realities of life, the realities of relationships.

23:08 Quite frankly, knock it off. Let's talk bluntly because more lives could be saved if we did so. Sean and John, we all collectively cover and have either faced or report on such tragic and horrific cases. Okay, sometimes they have a ending or something that actually gives survivors hope to move on with their lives. But you know what kind of toll. Does this take on you, consistently dealing with the endgame of tragedy when it comes to so many of the cases. That you cover.

23:49 I think for me it helps a lot that you know, I'll get a little sappy that you know, my best friend is my partner in this. So it's good to have someone that's close to you, that is available at any time that you can just be like, let me just tell you this fucked up thing, or let me just share this with you, or let me tell you what I'm going through. And like we will raise our voices or express our frustration not with each other but to each other about the things we read. And I think that's always helped me. I'm much I'm very much a venor that I will, you know, say everything that I'm thinking and be very angry about it, and then somehow I just kind of move on. But John definitely always keeps me laughing. He's got a lot of he's got a great sense of humor. He's always finding, you know, a way to make me laugh, and that that's just exactly what I need.

24:37 So oh, that is true. I mean, especially the stuff about me just kidding. But for me, I think to kind of get through some of these I like to think about and we often talk about the fact that by highlighting these cases, there's a chance that we can potentially prevent them from happening again by educating people, by telling you know, there are people I don't know how, but there are people that don't understand what red flags are and what are red flags. So the more you know what to look for in your relationships, just the same kind of things that you talk about. I like to think that I am helping people.

25:18 Not ignore things and be ready to address them and understand where to go and that help is available, all of that stuff. I mean. The weird thing about working in prevention kind of like I do, is that there's it's almost impossible to measure things that did not happen. We don't know, We don't really know, but yeah, that's definitely one thing that keeps us motivated. We want to educate our community and we want to try to help people. I left the bench, y'all because all I saw was ugly. It wasn't And I left the full time bench because all I saw was ugly. All I saw were women, men getting victimized and them not understanding women with a crowbar to a chest. I saw that what we call baby in a microwave. The stuff I saw I can't unsee.

26:10 And if anything we do and just this arena save someone from being killed, then everything I did is worth it. People are gonna love me or hate me, and it doesn't really matter to me because they're not paying my bills. But if I can get someone to listen to this this conversation and be the friend that goes and tells their buddy, I don't like them, and here's why I don't like her. Here's why you're gonna lose friends. And that, guess what is okay because at the end of the day, you did the right thing. Your conscience is clear, and that is what we're supposed to do as human beings is try to help others. And you can't only lead a horse to water, you can't make them drink, but at least you do your duty and you do what you should do as a friend is tell them, hey, here are my concerns. I love you, I want the best for you. Here's what I'm seeing. And the people receiving that message need to listen to these types of podcasts and think they're not jealous. They're not trying to hurt me. They are trying to educate and make me take those rose colored glasses off.

27:16 Sorry for my soapbox, No, that's amazing. I have a question for Sean and John what inspired you both to get into crime podcasting. In twenty twenty two, Crime con came to Vegas, and that was the year that Gabby Patito was murdered by her boyfriend, and I reached out to the people in charge of crime Con and I said, Hey, like, you're coming to my city, you're going to talk about domestic violence, Please have resources available for people, because this is going to bring up some stuff for people and they're not going to know where to put it. People are going to want to know the hotline, They're going to want to know where to go for help. But crime Con never got back to me, so I ended up attending myself and trying to hear what they all had to say about Gabby Patito and I just started researching more about how true crime can help people and be more ethical, and that's how I kind of learned more about the podcasters that are out there doing the work to raise awareness, to help families, to advocate for justice. And John and I went to a different conference, the True Crime Podcast Festival, just to kind of listen and hear and see what was going on. And during one of the sessions, John just kind of poked me and he was like, are you hearing what I'm hearing? We're hearing these stories of murder, We're hearing these family tragedies, and do you see that domestic violence is an undercurrent in all of these cases, and he's like, we could do this. We could make a show that where we really spotlight that, we really go into that, we talk about the facts and figures

28:49 in reality, and we make it more than just a tagline. You know. Oh, you see those shirts. I'm sure you've seen them before, Jake, Michelle, you may have seen them too. People wear the shirts that say the husband did it, and it's like, yes, the husband did it. Let's talk about the issue. Let's not make light of it. It's so serious and it's something that really affects the Las Vegas and community where we live. Nevada for twenty three out of last twenty five years has been in the top ten for women being murdered by men per capita. So we just kind of wanted to tell our local stories, help our local families, and just raise awareness about the issue. Well, you're both making a huge impact, especially to take these stories and highlight the cases, the victims, the survivors in your own community. And I see a lot of these podcasts they cover sort of a global level, but the fact that you're basically making this a homegrown effort and sort of a mandate to advocate for people that you're surrounded by. Generally, when people think Las Vegas, they think sensationalization. Right, there's a way that you could really push the boundaries of tongue in cheek, and you really don't.

29:57 You go at Las Vegas like it's boise ido in a way, just a small town just trying to get by, and these are the crimes that happen. So I really admire that. What I say about Vegas a lot of times is the part that most people experience is the show that we put on for all of you. So we are your stage crew, We are your PA's, like, we put this show together for you. So you come and you see the performances, you see the bright lights, you eat, the delicious food, you enjoy, the sporting events, you do all of that. But behind that backstage are the firefighters and the cops, and the teachers and the acrobats in circ like we are all regular people just living our lives here. So I think from us, from our point of view in the suburbs, it probably doesn't feel very different from anyone else's life in the suburbs, you know, But there is that part that people see and then there's the part that people don't see.

30:54 What do you want the future to look like for your series, the impact it makes, and how you're going to grow and expand what you're doing. And how can we help. Yes, I think that there's some good stuff happening in Vegas that probably doesn't get enough attention, Like we do have the Vegas Justice League where Justin Wu and company, they are trying to raise money every day to really get into the cold case backlog. I think the tech that we've seen improve around DNA testing could really mean some breakthroughs. And we've had some amazing solves and identifications recently that John and I covered some of them on the podcast. It's a little out of our scope, but we like are We just get such a like a hopeful feeling from it. We want to cover those cold cases, especially when they're solves that like energizes me. I really try and embrace that. I would love to see people in our community become more familiar with the work we do and come to us to say, I have a cold case. I want people to talk about this. I want to do more of that.

31:57 Thank you for joining Sean, John, Michelle and I on loveless Fridays. If you have dating a relationship story to share or want to participate in a discussion here on loveless Fridays, dm me on Instagram at lovelss fear pod or email me at Lovelessfearpod at gmail dot com. Thanks for listening, sharing and supporting. Links against social media and some content mentioned are in our show notes. If you know someone who's being abused by a partner, there is help available twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, three hundred and sixty five days a year. The National Domestic Violence Hotline provides essential tools and support to help survivors of domestic violence so they can live their lives free of abuse. Call one eight hundred seventy nine nine safe that's one eight hundred and seventy nine nine seven two three three, or text start to eight eight seven eight eight