Nov. 1, 2024

Love Lust Fridays Discussion - The Tragic Murder of Ashley and Dennis Prince

Love Lust Fridays Discussion - The Tragic Murder of Ashley and Dennis Prince
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Season 2Las VegasTrue CrimeDomestic ViolenceGun Violence

We have a special treat today. We were invited by Jake Deptula (@jaked3000) and Michele Locke (@attorneymichelelocke) onto the Love Lust Fear Podcast (@lovelustfearpod ) to discuss the recent horrifying murder of Ashley and Dennis Prince in Dennis' Summerlin Law Office.

Michelle is an absolute rock star expert in the area of family law and domestic violence, and of course, you know Jake as the expert in all things relationships and Stalking from his other huge podcast @strictlystalkingpod

It was a great conversation, and you don't want to miss it. Listen now at sinspod.co/dvbonus5 and show Michelle and Jake some love! Follow them on social media and check out Love Lust Fear and Strictly Stalking.

Let us know what you think!

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WEBVTT

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Hello, Sins and Survivors listeners. As you know, we normally

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focus on cases that deal with domestic violence and occasionally

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missing persons and unsolved cases. I'm your host, Sean, and

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with me, as always, is the one and only John.

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I am the only John in the room.

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Today, we have a very special episode for you. Jake

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and Michelle from Loveluss Fridays invited us on to talk

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about the Ashley and Dennis Prince domestic violence murder case,

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to dig deeper into the case and get some different

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expert perspectives.

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Michelle is a former associate family court judge and current

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family law attorney who has handled over five thousand domestic

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violence cases. Jake is well known for his podcast Love Lust,

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Fear and of course Love Lust Fridays, and he's also

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the co host of Strictly Stalking. So we're really leaning

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into talking with some serious domain experts.

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Here.

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We'll link the original episode in the show notes. You

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can re listen to the episode on the Prince murders.

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We had a really in depth conversation with Michelle and Jake,

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really digging into a lot of the aspects of this case,

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and it was fascinating to get the perspective of a

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former judge who has pretty much seen it all in

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the family court system.

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So, without further delay, here's Jake.

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I'm Jake Debtulah and this is Loveless Fridays. Here we

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delve deeper into the topics, themes and stories featured on

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Loveless Fear. Today, I'm excited to welcome Sean and John,

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the host of Sins and Survivors Las Vegas True Crime.

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Their podcast uncovers Las Vegas' most disturbing true crime cases

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with a special emphasis on domestic violence. Sewn is an

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advocate with over twenty five years of experience and dedicates

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her efforts to supporting survivors and working with various nonprofits,

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while John has twenty five years in tech consulting with

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a passion for true crime, focusing on digital privacy and safety. Together,

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they reveal the hidden, darker aspects of Las Vegas. On

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their show, they covered the tragic case of Dennis and

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Ashley Prince. Ashley was involved in a custody case with

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her ex husband Dylan Houston. Her new husband, Dennis Prince,

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was her attorney in the custody case, while Dylan was

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represented by his father and Ashley's ex father in law,

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Joe Houston. Just minutes into the deposition at Dennis's law offices,

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Joe Houston pulls out a handgun and shoots both Ashley

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and Dennis to death. He then turned the gun on himself.

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Also joining us as Michelle Locke, a former associate family

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court judge in current family law attorney with extensive experience

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in handling over five thousand domestic violence cases. She's here

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to offer her valuable perspectives and insights. Sean and John,

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thank you so much for joining. What was it about

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this particular case that made you both want to cover

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it and highlight some of the toxic and devastating issues

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that this case amplifies.

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So this case was really shocking, as you might imagine,

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but there were a couple of things about it. Many

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times there isn't very much coverage at all, so they'll

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be just like that brief coverage, but with the high

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profile nature of the people involved, there was some more

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information out there. These people were all very success full,

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very successful lawyers, and when it happened, we remember very

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well the day it happened because it happened very close

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to where I used to live up in Summerland, just

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right across the street, and initially the reporting was that

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perhaps there was a mass shooting in a law office

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in downtown Summerland, which is like a kind of a swanky,

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very swanky shopping area that has an office building in

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the center where Dennis Prince had his offices, and there

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was a lot of sort of panic in the area

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on that day. So we really wanted to dig into

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that and find out what happened. And it also highlights

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the fact that this happens at every socioeconomic level. We

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cover a lot of people that have low incomes, but

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it happens, you know, we say in our every episode,

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what happens here, happens everywhere, and it's also true that

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what happens at one the socioeconomic level happens at all

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socioeconomic levels.

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For me, part of it was Ashley was trying to

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break away from the person who was abusive in her life.

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She was trying to do right by her family, and

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it became this huge, toxic, awful mess for her, And

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I think it just really highlights that a lot of

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times we as people, we like the simple solution. We

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want to say, just leave, just leave and move on

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and Ashley did. She divorced this man, but because of

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her children, she was always going to be connected to

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him in one way or the other. So even though

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she tried to leave, it wasn't In some ways, it's

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not going to be enough without her going to the

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court and asking for more help and more support.

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Michelle, you're no stranger to any of these issues when

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it comes to domestic violence court, when it comes to

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custody battles.

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What would you like.

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To share about this particular case and why it resonated

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with you?

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For me, the facts are horrendous for so many reasons,

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and family law in itself is contentious when you get

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to custody litigation, especially post divorce. If you are on

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what we call in Texas a modification suit, which seeks

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to modify parental rights post divorce or post the original proceeding,

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you already have high conflict because if you're back in

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court after you were already there before for your original case,

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you don't get along. So that is makes you high

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conflict to start with. But what was particular about this case,

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and if you know how litigation works and how depositions work,

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what struck me as interesting for many reasons. Is that

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at this deposition, it took place at the new husband's office.

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His wife was there, and she's a party. And typically

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when you have a deposition, parties are present, even if

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you're taking a third party witnesses deposition. And so Dad

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was taking the deposition in theory of his own wife

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against the new husband and the ex wife, his son's

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ex wife. The person that was missing that should have

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been there was the other party, Dad. Why wasn't Dad there?

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And I know in the legal filings in court there

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were allegations immediately after the shooting of he must have known,

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and then Dad denied that, and I understand those their

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legal positions. I'm just gonna tell you there are certain

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smell tests we use in court, and that one smells funny.

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That is what I'm gonna say, because parties are almost

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always present at depositions, even for third persons. In this

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particular case, it was his mom being deposed. His ex

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wife was there, her new husband there, his dad was there,

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but he chose not to be there that day. Interesting, Yeah,

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for sure.

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That was one thing that we did talk about though

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during this school day before anything was confirmed in the press.

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Who was a victim, whether or not Ashley had been shot,

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whether she was dead or alive, Dylan showed up and

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pulled his kids out of school in the middle of

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the day. Yeah, and John, and I want to say

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that the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department did clear Dylan.

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They did an investigation and they cleared him. So I

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just want to say that for the purposes of the podcast.

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But I agree with you with the smell test. He

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wasn't there, and then in the middle of the day

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he went and took his kids out of school.

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And I agree with you. He was cleared. Absolutely was cleared.

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And I'm not suggesting anything other than he was cleared,

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and that's what the facts are. I'm just gonna say.

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He's an officer of the court. He knows how the

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system works, he knows how depositions work, he knew what

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was going on. I mean, he's a think a personal

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injury attorney, if I recall correctly from the information, and

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so it is just odd that he would not be there.

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I'm not saying it means anything. Is just odd, really odd.

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It seems like Joe Houston was triggered once Dennis started

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questioning his wife. I would like to know the mindset

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where Joe Houston was. And I know this is completely

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least speculation at this point, but would love to know

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your opinion on this.

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Yes, definitely speculation for sure. And it did seem like

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it was extremely contentious right from the beginning. So Joe said,

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is there any way we can resolve this for the

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sake of the kids? He did not receive an answer,

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and then he went in and started directly questioning his wife,

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which of course can be stressful, but it's a deposition.

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One of the things that we did not share in

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the podcast is that Joe Houston was apparently sick, so

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he had learned that he had prostate cancer that had

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spread to his bones that had returned just days before

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the incident occurred. So when trying to wrap my brain

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around what is the motivation for someone in that sort

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of situation, I absolutely can't imagine. I can speculate, we

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try not to speculate, but it does seem that was

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probably on his mind.

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I'm sure it was, But why are you going to

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a deposition locked and loaded? It's not.

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And Joe Houston and Dennis Prince were arguing via email

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over the what was going to happen. At this deposition,

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Joe asked that Ashley not be there, and Dennis was like,

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you can forget it, Ashley's going to be there. But

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he did send him an email in all caps that

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was like, I demand Ashley not be there, which I

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think Dennis just basically laughed at what is this? What

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kind of demand is that to make? But it just

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I just think it's just one more piece of evidence, Michelle,

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that this had gotten way out of control.

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And that's the other part for me, speaking as a lawyer,

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one of the reasons you have independent counsel is to

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remove that venom, the emotional entrenchment that occurs if you're

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involved in your own case. I don't know why, because

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in this particular case, there were three attorneys, right there

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was the new husband, there was the father in law,

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and there was the son you're telling me. Between those

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three attorneys, not one of them sat back and said, yeah,

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this is a bad idea, like because most of them

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were probably a fact witnesses to begin with. And so

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for me, I'm just like, at what point did someone

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go Someone should have said this is a bad, bad,

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bad idea.

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And you know what, Michelle, Joe Houston's wife, Dylan's mom

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had her own attorney, you know what I mean. Even

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this other, let's say sort of on the outside looking in,

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non family attorney person was even somewhat connected to this case.

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I don't know how it got as far as it got.

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Shocking to me, it was designed to explode. You've got

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that much animosity and then quite frankly, that much brain power. Like, no,

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no offensive attorneys, but I am one. When we're in

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depositions and we're good attorneys, we can ask questions in

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a deposition that will make someone extremely angry. And so

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if he's just been told his cancer is back, it's metastatics,

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so it's spread to his bones, and his wife is

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getting ask questions that he doesn't like, Well, that's design

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for a problem. I mean to me, why didn't he

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step aside and have the Yeah, I need to step

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back from this. I mean that part of your job

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as an attorney, so no, when you can't do it anymore.

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And originally when John and I covered the case, Metro

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was still doing their investigation. But just recently in the

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last and I want to say it, towards the end

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of the summer, they released their report their findings and Joe,

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Joe fired that gun twelve times. So it wasn't like

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a one, two three. I don't want to get too graphic,

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but I mean, it wasn't like that. He got Dennis

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seven times, seven times, three in the back and Ashley

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one in the front, three in the back, and the

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twelfth bullet was for him in his own head. I

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believe there was a staff person from Dennis's office was

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in the in the room. She was pregnant. It must

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have just the horror of that is the order there.

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Yep, court reporter was there, lawyer was there, Catherine was there,

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and initially Ashley wanted to hire private security for the deposition.

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Speaking of presence of mind, right, So she's the one

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who's not a lawyer, not an officer of the court,

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and she has the presence of mind to say maybe

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we should bring private security into this. But they canceled

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the private security once they found out that Dylan wasn't

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going to be at the deposition, because everyone expected that

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the violence would come from Dylan, not from Joe.

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All I can say is these poor children, yeah, because

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this is the legacy they're left with because adults couldn't

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be adults. It's horrific.

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Ashley had the foresight to understand that Dylan was a

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threat emotionally, mentally, physically, and otherwise. Can you speak to

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some of the conditions that Ashley faced during her marriage

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to Dylan.

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So there was an incident when they were married and

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they were only married for four years, I think, yeah,

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so at one point he used a baseball bat to

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smash there and like smash up their home. She left

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shortly after that. But what we said in our intro

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was that she put up with years of unrelenting emotional

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abuse and threats. Right so, he would text her up

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to seventy times a day, just blowing up her phone.

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And Ashley's family shared some of the text messages during

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the trial, and they said things like prepare for a

247
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future on your knees, And there was one that said,

248
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I don't want to see you unless you're in a casket.

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And there was another one that we didn't quote here

250
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that said something like, and I'll have to paraphrase it,

251
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the children would be better off without you. Very direct

252
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threats upon her life.

253
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And that was from her ex husband.

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Right, yeah, long before the deposition.

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When we talk about red flags, and jac you and

256
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I have talked about red flags before, and someone that

257
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puts that into writing is a danger. That mean, generally speaking,

258
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there's always exceptions. But he's a lawyer, his dad's a lawyer,

259
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the new husband's a lawyer, and he's putting that into writing.

260
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And he hadn't been sanctioned in any way by.

261
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The court or the court told him to stop.

262
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But oh, he don't stopp Okay, but he didn't stop.

263
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But there was no consequences to not stopping.

264
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Well, And then what happened was, at least from what

265
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I have gathered, is that the case was transferred from

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Judge Henderson to the new judge, because I think Judge

267
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Henderson handled it for like two years total, but then

268
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it was transferred to a different judge and I heard

269
00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:39.200
her talking about it, and I remember her criticizing him

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about his communications, like knowing who he is, knowing it's

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under the watch flaw of the court, still sending these communications.

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And I have a case now that the communications are

273
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somewhart of this, and it's just but how do you

274
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stop someone's First Amendment?

275
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Right?

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You can't stop someone from being an a hole who

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wants to be an a hole. But holy cow, talk

278
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about red flags of I mean, someone puts that in writing.

279
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Start watching your back and have your nest cameras on

280
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at all times and pay for the subscription because y'all

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it's worth it.

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And Michelle, you you're a parent, how do you how

283
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do you even begin to try and parent a child

284
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with someone who behaves this way?

285
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I dealt with it. I want. One of my children,

286
00:15:21.679 --> 00:15:24.440
who's now an adult, had a particular issue with a

287
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younger girl when he was younger. And I have three boys,

288
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and it is different raising boys in today's world than

289
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it was when my parents raise my brothers and I

290
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and I am very, very very frank with them, and

291
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I mean probably more so than most parents, because I've

292
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seen the stuff that I wish I couldn't see, stuff

293
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that I don't want my kids to see. But let

294
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me tell you what. I'm very blunt with them about

295
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the risk, the dangers, et cetera. And I was the parent.

296
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They're under eighteen. I'm paying for their cell phone. Sorry, guys,

297
00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:02.720
I'm going through through it because no offense. Your prefrontal

298
00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:05.639
cortex is not fully developed. You don't make the right

299
00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:08.360
decisions yet because you're thinking with hormones and you're thinking

300
00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:11.799
with your physical responses, not with your executive functioning, and

301
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so it is my job to be on your tail

302
00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:18.320
every single day making sure you make the right decisions.

303
00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:20.559
The problem is when th't eighteen, they think you're still

304
00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:22.759
stupid and they ignore you for about four more years

305
00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:24.960
they figure out mom actually knew what she was talking about.

306
00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:29.240
But I'm very blunt, and I raised my ex husband's

307
00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:32.320
two girls. I was very blunt with them. I told

308
00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:35.200
them the risks of dating. I told them stories from

309
00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:37.960
the courtroom because I think it's important for them to

310
00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:40.879
know that it's not My kids have lived a very

311
00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:43.080
good life. They may tell you differently, but they have

312
00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:46.120
lived a very good life. That being said, because of that,

313
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they've been in protective bubble for the most part, because

314
00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:52.480
that's how they've grown up, and they don't understand the

315
00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:57.559
realities of what can go really wrong. And to some

316
00:16:57.639 --> 00:16:59.879
extent they listen, but it takes them a little while

317
00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:00.360
yet there.

318
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I'll be real honest, Michelle, you're someone who's been in

319
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the trenches of domestic violence and seen the worst. Do

320
00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:11.279
your kids understand that at this point when you speak,

321
00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:15.160
they really need to listen because you've seen it all.

322
00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:18.279
So it actually has a double whammy. My ex husband,

323
00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:20.000
who I was married to for twenty two years, as

324
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a prosecutor and has been a prosecutor for thirty years

325
00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:26.440
and tried I mean, I think he had seven or

326
00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:29.440
eight on death row. I mean tried all the big

327
00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:33.279
ugly cases. And so between the two of us, they

328
00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:37.920
had more access to information than most youth get. Whether

329
00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:39.559
they listen to it or on, I don't know, but

330
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I can tell you my old er two, for the

331
00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:46.079
most part, don't drink, they don't do drugs. They're not partiers.

332
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They're relatively good kids. I've got my issues with them,

333
00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:51.640
but they're they're good, caring kids. But they've heard the

334
00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:55.400
horror stories. We have not sheltered them from the realities

335
00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:58.240
that there is a dark side, and you have to

336
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pay attention to those warnings to know that if it

337
00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:05.440
doesn't pass the smell test or the other side I

338
00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:07.160
tell them is if it walks like a duck, talks

339
00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:08.599
like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck.

340
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I don't care what you call it.

341
00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:10.680
It's very true.

342
00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:14.839
Sean and John, what are some of the takeaways that

343
00:18:15.079 --> 00:18:17.079
you can reveal from some of the cases that you've

344
00:18:17.079 --> 00:18:19.960
seen in some of the trends of steps that happened

345
00:18:20.039 --> 00:18:22.880
right before a tragedy like this unfolded.

346
00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:26.480
I think you hit on it earlier. It's really about

347
00:18:26.920 --> 00:18:30.839
looking for the red flags. And the thing that kills

348
00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:34.240
us about this one is that Ashley saw the red flag.

349
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She lived through years long red flag warning with him,

350
00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:42.960
and the fact that she was going to hire security.

351
00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:46.240
I think you need to trust your gut. And if

352
00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:49.720
you see red flags and you think something's wrong here,

353
00:18:50.079 --> 00:18:52.759
you need to trust your gut. Don't let someone talk

354
00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:54.799
you out of it and say, ah, I think it's fine.

355
00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:57.839
John and I are also always cautious when we say

356
00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:01.480
this because we do not victim. So I'm going to

357
00:19:01.559 --> 00:19:03.400
say this and I want the people to hear it

358
00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:06.200
and understand that this is not a personal criticism on

359
00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:09.039
anything anyone did or didn't do. But in a lot

360
00:19:09.079 --> 00:19:13.839
of the times these situations, we have heard or seen moms, sisters,

361
00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:17.400
fathers say I knew something was wrong, but I didn't

362
00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:18.960
know what to do. I didn't know if it was

363
00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:22.599
a big enough deal. And to John and I, that's

364
00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:26.079
like heartbreaking, and what John usually says is in situations

365
00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:28.319
where you think someone is at risk of being murdered

366
00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:33.240
by their partner, you cannot overreact. You can only underreact.

367
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And we want people to feel comfortable figuring out ways

368
00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:38.680
to talk to their loved ones about what they think

369
00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:42.119
they see is going on. I think that's the takeaway

370
00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:43.599
that we have in a lot of these cases, is

371
00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:47.160
that after it's over, the press does the interview with

372
00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:49.680
the mom or the sister or the dad, and they

373
00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:52.039
are saying things like I knew something was wrong. He

374
00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:55.519
always treated her badly. She she didn't want to listen

375
00:19:55.559 --> 00:19:58.720
to me. So it's kind of like, how do we

376
00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:01.680
look out for each other better when we see the

377
00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:03.279
red flights? Because sometimes if you're in it, you don't

378
00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:05.720
see it, or you don't want it. You balance it

379
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:07.519
out with the other good stuff that's happening, so you

380
00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:09.759
don't accept it. And it's like, how do we have

381
00:20:09.799 --> 00:20:13.359
those conversations with each other in a productive, safe, and

382
00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:13.920
caring way.

383
00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:18.200
So I have two takeaways. It's amazing how smart my

384
00:20:18.359 --> 00:20:21.480
gut has gotten as I've gotten older, And it's not

385
00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:24.880
because it actually got smarter, it's because I started listening

386
00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:29.799
to it. That is absolutely number one. The number two

387
00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:33.440
takeaway that I wish I'd known younger, and this is

388
00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:35.960
the big mistake that I think youth makes in particular,

389
00:20:36.039 --> 00:20:41.000
because truly wisdom comes with age. Is when everyone around

390
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:45.039
you dislikes the person, there's a reason for it. It's

391
00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:51.960
not because they don't understand him or her, right, Oh well,

392
00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:54.559
they just want him, or they don't understand him like

393
00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:59.480
I do. No, they get him, they get her. They

394
00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:03.839
don't have have the rose colored glasses on. And instead

395
00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:06.759
of fighting the people, because those people love you and

396
00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:09.680
they want what's best for you, and they're trying to

397
00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:14.799
help young ladies. It's not jealousy. It's just not listen

398
00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:18.319
to your friends. When the ex wife says he's a

399
00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:23.079
terrible SOB, she's speaking from experience, y'all. It's not that

400
00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:27.519
she just all of a sudden became hateful. She knew.

401
00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:31.920
Listen to them they know, or my favorite that you know,

402
00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:33.640
he says all his exes are crazy.

403
00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:36.640
Right, Oh, listen, if they say all their ex'es are crazy,

404
00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:38.559
I would say that's red flag number one. But that's

405
00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:40.359
like red flag number ninety nine by the time you

406
00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:43.400
get there. Oh no, she was crazy. She was or conversely,

407
00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:46.039
he was crazy. He was crazy, he was crazy, he

408
00:21:46.119 --> 00:21:51.279
was crazy. No, the common denominator is not them.

409
00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:51.880
You know.

410
00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:53.839
One of the things that all of you mentioned you

411
00:21:53.960 --> 00:21:58.200
have to have uncomfortable conversations to come up with healthy solutions.

412
00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:01.200
There's no way around this same thing. You witness a crime.

413
00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:03.640
I don't want to be involved, don't want to rock

414
00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:05.799
the boat. I don't want this drama in my life.

415
00:22:05.799 --> 00:22:08.640
And you see these moments when you said this earlier, Sean,

416
00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:10.640
I wish I would have said something. You don't want

417
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:12.640
to be in that position, you don't want to be.

418
00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:15.000
Would a could have, should have, especially if there's a

419
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:18.200
tragedy like this. It's not victim blaming, but I think

420
00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:21.759
we have to help people feel more comfortable with coming forward.

421
00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:25.440
And even if you may lose a friend in the process, you.

422
00:22:25.880 --> 00:22:30.640
May lose friends. You will lose friends. But and quite frankly,

423
00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:33.559
the last thing you want to do is not have

424
00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:35.839
said something, and then you see you get the phone

425
00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:39.359
call a month later at six am because that person's

426
00:22:39.400 --> 00:22:42.519
body's been found. I've had a conversation with someone before

427
00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:46.559
where this was a particular issue was like, he's threatening suicide.

428
00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:48.960
Do I call his fan. Do I call? I said, yes,

429
00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:51.519
you call, because if you don't call, what are you

430
00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:53.119
going to do? The next day? Something happens? And if

431
00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:56.759
you get it wrong, oh well. But everyone is so

432
00:22:56.920 --> 00:23:01.319
afraid to have uncomfortable conversations these days because it's everyone

433
00:23:01.359 --> 00:23:04.039
wants to be politically correct. No one wants to talk

434
00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:08.440
bluntly about the realities of life, the realities of relationships.

435
00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:13.200
Quite frankly, knock it off. Let's talk bluntly because more

436
00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:23.599
lives could be saved if we did so.

437
00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:27.119
Sean and John, we all collectively cover and have either

438
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:33.079
faced or report on such tragic and horrific cases. Okay,

439
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:36.519
sometimes they have a ending or something that actually gives

440
00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:39.519
survivors hope to move on with their lives.

441
00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:41.039
But you know what kind of toll.

442
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:45.039
Does this take on you, consistently dealing with the endgame

443
00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:48.359
of tragedy when it comes to so many of the cases.

444
00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:48.519
That you cover.

445
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:51.480
I think for me it helps a lot that you know,

446
00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:54.079
I'll get a little sappy that you know, my best

447
00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:57.359
friend is my partner in this. So it's good to

448
00:23:57.440 --> 00:23:59.839
have someone that's close to you, that is available at

449
00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:03.279
any time that you can just be like, let me

450
00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:04.799
just tell you this fucked up thing, or let me

451
00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:06.160
just share this with you, or let me tell you

452
00:24:06.200 --> 00:24:09.039
what I'm going through. And like we will raise our

453
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:13.000
voices or express our frustration not with each other but

454
00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:15.319
to each other about the things we read. And I

455
00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:17.839
think that's always helped me. I'm much I'm very much

456
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:21.039
a venor that I will, you know, say everything that

457
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:23.000
I'm thinking and be very angry about it, and then

458
00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:26.799
somehow I just kind of move on. But John definitely

459
00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:30.000
always keeps me laughing. He's got a lot of he's

460
00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:33.319
got a great sense of humor. He's always finding, you know,

461
00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:36.799
a way to make me laugh, and that that's just

462
00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:37.799
exactly what I need.

463
00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:40.279
So oh, that is true. I mean, especially the stuff

464
00:24:40.279 --> 00:24:44.440
about me just kidding. But for me, I think to

465
00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:48.000
kind of get through some of these I like to

466
00:24:48.039 --> 00:24:51.319
think about and we often talk about the fact that

467
00:24:51.759 --> 00:24:55.559
by highlighting these cases, there's a chance that we can

468
00:24:56.119 --> 00:25:00.240
potentially prevent them from happening again by educating people, by

469
00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:03.400
telling you know, there are people I don't know how,

470
00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:06.440
but there are people that don't understand what red flags

471
00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:10.839
are and what are red flags. So the more you

472
00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:14.000
know what to look for in your relationships, just the

473
00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:16.400
same kind of things that you talk about. I like

474
00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:18.480
to think that I am helping people.

475
00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:22.000
Not ignore things and be ready to address them and

476
00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:25.160
understand where to go and that help is available, all

477
00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:25.839
of that stuff.

478
00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:26.160
I mean.

479
00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:30.319
The weird thing about working in prevention kind of like

480
00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:33.240
I do, is that there's it's almost impossible to measure

481
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:37.240
things that did not happen. We don't know, We don't

482
00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:40.000
really know, but yeah, that's definitely one thing that keeps

483
00:25:40.039 --> 00:25:44.119
us motivated. We want to educate our community and we

484
00:25:44.200 --> 00:25:45.680
want to try to help people.

485
00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:49.559
I left the bench, y'all because all I saw was ugly.

486
00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:53.559
It wasn't And I left the full time bench because

487
00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:57.759
all I saw was ugly. All I saw were women,

488
00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:03.720
men getting victimized and them not understanding women with a

489
00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:05.680
crowbar to a chest. I saw that what we call

490
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:09.319
baby in a microwave. The stuff I saw I can't unsee.

491
00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:14.640
And if anything we do and just this arena save

492
00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:20.000
someone from being killed, then everything I did is worth it.

493
00:26:20.359 --> 00:26:21.759
People are gonna love me or hate me, and it

494
00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:23.920
doesn't really matter to me because they're not paying my bills.

495
00:26:24.359 --> 00:26:28.519
But if I can get someone to listen to this

496
00:26:28.519 --> 00:26:31.720
this conversation and be the friend that goes and tells

497
00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:34.599
their buddy, I don't like them, and here's why I

498
00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:39.079
don't like her. Here's why you're gonna lose friends. And that,

499
00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:41.720
guess what is okay because at the end of the day,

500
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:44.079
you did the right thing. Your conscience is clear, and

501
00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:46.119
that is what we're supposed to do as human beings

502
00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:49.079
is try to help others. And you can't only lead

503
00:26:49.119 --> 00:26:51.279
a horse to water, you can't make them drink, but

504
00:26:51.319 --> 00:26:53.640
at least you do your duty and you do what

505
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:55.640
you should do as a friend is tell them, hey,

506
00:26:55.960 --> 00:26:58.839
here are my concerns. I love you, I want the

507
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:03.720
best for you. Here's what I'm seeing. And the people

508
00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:06.359
receiving that message need to listen to these types of

509
00:27:06.359 --> 00:27:10.759
podcasts and think they're not jealous. They're not trying to

510
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:13.960
hurt me. They are trying to educate and make me

511
00:27:14.039 --> 00:27:15.960
take those rose colored glasses off.

512
00:27:16.759 --> 00:27:20.039
Sorry for my soapbox, No, that's amazing. I have a

513
00:27:20.119 --> 00:27:23.400
question for Sean and John what inspired you both to

514
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:25.359
get into crime podcasting.

515
00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:29.519
In twenty twenty two, Crime con came to Vegas, and

516
00:27:29.720 --> 00:27:33.119
that was the year that Gabby Patito was murdered by

517
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:36.880
her boyfriend, and I reached out to the people in

518
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:39.920
charge of crime Con and I said, Hey, like, you're

519
00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:42.759
coming to my city, you're going to talk about domestic violence,

520
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:45.640
Please have resources available for people, because this is going

521
00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:47.359
to bring up some stuff for people and they're not

522
00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:49.279
going to know where to put it. People are going

523
00:27:49.319 --> 00:27:51.079
to want to know the hotline, They're going to want

524
00:27:51.079 --> 00:27:53.759
to know where to go for help. But crime Con

525
00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:56.920
never got back to me, so I ended up attending

526
00:27:56.960 --> 00:27:59.279
myself and trying to hear what they all had to

527
00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:03.640
say about Gabby Patito and I just started researching more

528
00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:07.319
about how true crime can help people and be more ethical,

529
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:10.240
and that's how I kind of learned more about the

530
00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:13.680
podcasters that are out there doing the work to raise awareness,

531
00:28:13.720 --> 00:28:18.079
to help families, to advocate for justice. And John and

532
00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:22.200
I went to a different conference, the True Crime Podcast Festival,

533
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:24.440
just to kind of listen and hear and see what

534
00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:27.440
was going on. And during one of the sessions, John

535
00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:29.720
just kind of poked me and he was like, are

536
00:28:29.720 --> 00:28:32.759
you hearing what I'm hearing? We're hearing these stories of murder,

537
00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:36.480
We're hearing these family tragedies, and do you see that

538
00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:39.240
domestic violence is an undercurrent in all of these cases,

539
00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:42.119
and he's like, we could do this. We could make

540
00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:45.920
a show that where we really spotlight that, we really

541
00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:49.079
go into that, we talk about the facts and figures

542
00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:52.319
in reality, and we make it more than just a tagline.

543
00:28:52.359 --> 00:28:52.559
You know.

544
00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:55.200
Oh, you see those shirts. I'm sure you've seen them before, Jake, Michelle,

545
00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:57.359
you may have seen them too. People wear the shirts

546
00:28:57.400 --> 00:29:01.160
that say the husband did it, and it's like, yes,

547
00:29:01.240 --> 00:29:03.799
the husband did it. Let's talk about the issue. Let's

548
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:06.599
not make light of it. It's so serious and it's

549
00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:10.319
something that really affects the Las Vegas and community where

550
00:29:10.359 --> 00:29:12.960
we live. Nevada for twenty three out of last twenty

551
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:15.640
five years has been in the top ten for women

552
00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:18.799
being murdered by men per capita. So we just kind

553
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:22.799
of wanted to tell our local stories, help our local families,

554
00:29:22.839 --> 00:29:24.480
and just raise awareness about the issue.

555
00:29:24.759 --> 00:29:27.680
Well, you're both making a huge impact, especially to take

556
00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:33.039
these stories and highlight the cases, the victims, the survivors

557
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:35.640
in your own community. And I see a lot of

558
00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:39.279
these podcasts they cover sort of a global level, but

559
00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:42.720
the fact that you're basically making this a homegrown effort

560
00:29:42.920 --> 00:29:46.559
and sort of a mandate to advocate for people that

561
00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:50.440
you're surrounded by. Generally, when people think Las Vegas, they

562
00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:54.039
think sensationalization. Right, there's a way that you could really

563
00:29:54.519 --> 00:29:57.720
push the boundaries of tongue in cheek, and you really don't.

564
00:29:57.960 --> 00:30:00.960
You go at Las Vegas like it's boise ido in

565
00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:03.599
a way, just a small town just trying to get by,

566
00:30:03.640 --> 00:30:06.119
and these are the crimes that happen. So I really

567
00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:06.799
admire that.

568
00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:09.720
What I say about Vegas a lot of times is

569
00:30:10.279 --> 00:30:14.359
the part that most people experience is the show that

570
00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:17.200
we put on for all of you. So we are

571
00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:20.759
your stage crew, We are your PA's, like, we put

572
00:30:20.759 --> 00:30:23.480
this show together for you. So you come and you

573
00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:26.799
see the performances, you see the bright lights, you eat,

574
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:29.039
the delicious food, you enjoy, the sporting events, you do

575
00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:33.799
all of that. But behind that backstage are the firefighters

576
00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:37.359
and the cops, and the teachers and the acrobats in

577
00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:40.359
circ like we are all regular people just living our

578
00:30:40.359 --> 00:30:42.359
lives here. So I think from us, from our point

579
00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:45.720
of view in the suburbs, it probably doesn't feel very

580
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:49.000
different from anyone else's life in the suburbs, you know,

581
00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:52.160
But there is that part that people see and then

582
00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:53.680
there's the part that people don't see.

583
00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:56.599
What do you want the future to look like for

584
00:30:56.720 --> 00:30:59.000
your series, the impact it makes, and how you're going

585
00:30:59.079 --> 00:31:00.680
to grow and expand what you're doing.

586
00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:01.680
And how can we help.

587
00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:06.680
Yes, I think that there's some good stuff happening in

588
00:31:06.759 --> 00:31:09.240
Vegas that probably doesn't get enough attention, Like we do

589
00:31:09.319 --> 00:31:12.519
have the Vegas Justice League where Justin Wu and company,

590
00:31:12.519 --> 00:31:16.200
they are trying to raise money every day to really

591
00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:18.880
get into the cold case backlog. I think the tech

592
00:31:19.400 --> 00:31:23.440
that we've seen improve around DNA testing could really mean

593
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:28.119
some breakthroughs. And we've had some amazing solves and identifications

594
00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:30.000
recently that John and I covered some of them on

595
00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:32.079
the podcast. It's a little out of our scope, but

596
00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:35.240
we like are We just get such a like a

597
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:38.039
hopeful feeling from it. We want to cover those cold cases,

598
00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:42.720
especially when they're solves that like energizes me. I really

599
00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:47.000
try and embrace that. I would love to see people

600
00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:49.960
in our community become more familiar with the work we

601
00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:53.279
do and come to us to say, I have a

602
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:56.359
cold case. I want people to talk about this. I

603
00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:57.279
want to do more of that.

604
00:31:57.680 --> 00:31:59.880
Thank you for joining Sean, John, Michelle and I on

605
00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:02.640
loveless Fridays. If you have dating a relationship story to

606
00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:04.920
share or want to participate in a discussion here on

607
00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:08.000
loveless Fridays, dm me on Instagram at lovelss fear pod

608
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:11.200
or email me at Lovelessfearpod at gmail dot com. Thanks

609
00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:14.440
for listening, sharing and supporting. Links against social media and

610
00:32:14.519 --> 00:32:16.799
some content mentioned are in our show notes. If you

611
00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:18.920
know someone who's being abused by a partner, there is

612
00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:21.559
help available twenty four hours a day, seven days a week,

613
00:32:21.559 --> 00:32:23.960
three hundred and sixty five days a year. The National

614
00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:27.200
Domestic Violence Hotline provides essential tools and support to help

615
00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:30.240
survivors of domestic violence so they can live their lives

616
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:33.200
free of abuse. Call one eight hundred seventy nine nine

617
00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:36.400
safe that's one eight hundred and seventy nine nine seven

618
00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:40.119
two three three, or text start to eight eight seven

619
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:40.640
eight eight
Dake Deptula
Jake Deptula
Michelle Locke