Guilty Until Proven Innocent - Gary Dotson - Part 2

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Visit fan list dot com, slash sins

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and Survivors to connect with us today. The following episode discusses topics related to

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domestic violence, including detailed accounts and
descriptions that some listeners might find distressing or

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triggering. Listener discretion is advised.
In part one of episode eight, we

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cover the beginning of Gary Dotson's story. Gary was found guilty of raping Kathleen

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Crowell in nineteen seventy nine. Six
years later, Kathleen recanted her testimony,

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saying she was never raped at all, and she made the whole story up

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because she was afraid she might be
pregnant at sixteen. She was afraid this

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would blow up her life with her
foster family. Kathleen did a meeting tour

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to apologize to Gary, to prove
his innocence and to try and have him

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released from prison. Gary was granted
an evidentiary hearing in April of nineteen eighty

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five and had a taste of freedom
as he was out on bail pending the

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hearing. Despite Kathleen's attempts to persuade
the judge, he refused to accept Kathleen's

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new testimony that she had lied in
nineteen seventy seven. Gary's hopes of being

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released from prison were crushed. Hi, and Welcome to Sins and Survivors,

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a Las Vegas true crime podcast where
we focus on cases that deal with domestic

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violence. I'm your host Sean,
and with me, as always, is

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the one and only John. I
am the only John in the room.

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For these two episodes, we're kind
of stepping out of where we the kind

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of cases we normally cover. But
this is part two of Gary Dotson's story,

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and we pick it up with Judge
Samuels revoking Gary's bond at the conclusion

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of the evidence Cherry hearing, and
sending Gary back to prison. This decision

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by Judge Samuels had an immediate backlash
and there was a serious public outcry.

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Seventy thousand people signed a petition that
the governor of Illinois, James Thompson released

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Gary Dotson and calls, faxes telegraphs
started arriving at the prosecutor's office. They

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definitely had an effect because Governor Jim
Thompson was swayed by what the people were

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saying and he saw Gary Dotson as
a way to garner some good publicity.

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At the time, Governor Thompson was
dealing with some very bad press after his

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administration had mishandled a serious salmonella outbreak
where multiple people died and more than seventeen

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thousand fell ill. So the governor
decided that he was going to grant Gary

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a clemency hearing, and he decided
that he himself would preside over the hearing,

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becoming the first governor ever to do
so. And it's important to remember

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that in the mid eighties, cable
TV was growing in popularity, but it

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was still pretty young. At the
time, CNN was known as the Cable

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News Network. Court TV was not
created until nineteen ninety one. However,

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the popularity of showing the Klaus von
Bulau attempted murder trials on TV had gotten

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high ratings on networks like NBC and
CBS. The press describes people replacing their

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daytime soap operas with watching the trial
footage instead. And the whole thing was

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an absolute media circus, and this
happened well before cases you've probably heard about

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or remember, like Casey, Anthony
or OJ. Kathleen campaigned hard for Gary's

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innocence. She spent most of March
and April of nineteen eighty five sharing her

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story on TV morning shows and on
Phil Donahue, who is huge. At

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the time, people were definitely talking
about the case, and on April twenty

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fourth, nineteen eighty five, Kathleen
even gave testimony before the US Senate Subcommittee

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on Juvenile Rape Victims and again apologized
and asserted Gary's innocence. She herself wrote

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an article published in People magazine called
Trying to Make It Right, and her

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photo was on the cover of that
issue. Governor Thompson definitely saw this as

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a chance to get some publicity nationwide, and one columnist for the Chicago Tribune

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later described him as being the ring
master of this media circus. More than

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one hundred and fifty reporters, both
print and broadcast journalists covered the hearing.

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CNN, the cable news network,
broadcast the hearings live and reached thirty two

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million households nationwide. The local CBS
station preempted all of its scheduled programming to

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do a live broadcast of the hearing. It's reported that Thompson, a former

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prosecutor, really put on a performance
in front of the cameras and the crowded

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hearing room. He grilled witnesses,
discussed the evidence, and caused the audience

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to gasp as he held up Kathleen
stained underwear circus. He also tried to

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cross examine Gary, being very re
condescending to him. He made any inappropriate

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jokes about Gary drinking hooch in prison, and he was extremely patronizing to Gary,

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at one point asking if he would
be a good boy if he were

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granted clemency. At the end of
the three day hearing, the Illinois Prison

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Review Board voted unanimously to deny Dotson
clemency. However, Thompson commuted Dotson's sentence

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to time served, but also claimed
that Gary's trial had been fair and that

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the evidence of his guilt was stronger
than ever. He was able to have

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it both ways, letting Gary out
of prison, but doing it by avoiding

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having to admit that the justice system
in Illinois had been wrong. This wasn't

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a pardon or an exoneration, just
early parole for Gary. So on May

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twelfth, nineteen eighty five, after
serving six years, Gary was finally out

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of prison. According to the Spokane
Chronicle, Gary's face lit up when he

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walked into his family's home. Twenty
Five people friends and family were there to

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celebrate with him. His brother John
said, quote, I missed him,

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and I love him, and I'm
glad he's back. Unquote. A sign

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on the door of the house said
Gary Dotson is innocent and loved and welcomed

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back home by his family and friends. Gary said he just wanted to sit

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down and relax. His sister,
Debbie, said he was home and he

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was happy. Kathleen continued her media
tour, but began making appearances with Gary.

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She apologized on The Today Show to
Gary's mother and asked for her forgiveness.

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Gary also appeared with Kathleen on The
Today Show, telling Jane Paully that

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he wasn't angry with Kathleen, he
was angry and frustrated with the system.

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Kathleen and Gary also appeared on ABC's
Good Morning America and on the CBS Morning

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News show. A particularly infamous and
inappropriate incident happened on CBS Phyllis George ended

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her interview of Kathleen and Gary by
asking them to shake hands. They both

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offered a weak handshake, and then
Phyllis asked how about a hug. Kathleen

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and Gary were shocked and they declined
to hug each other. Phyllis later said

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that she didn't mean to offend anyone
with that request, but since Gary was

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effectively just on parole not declared innocent, there was still doubt hanging over him.

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In fact, a former cellmate of
his claim that Gary had at one

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point confessed, but that cellmate failed
a lie detector test. Gary was getting

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offers on turning his life story into
a movie. That's how big this whole

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media circus was. This is definitely
some early true crime history. Kathleen wrote

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a book called Forgive Me about her
life and the accusation. She doated all

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of the proceeds from the book to
Gary about seventeen five hundred dollars, which

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would be about fifty thousand dollars in
twenty twenty three. Money and Gloria Allred,

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who many may know from representing victims
in high profile lawsuits such as those

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against Anthony Wiener and R Kelly.
Gloria already had concerns that Kathleen's recantation would

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have lasting negative effects on victims being
believed in rape cases. She stated that

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she hope the case quote does not
demoralize rape victims who feel they may not

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be believed unquote. The me too
movement didn't happen until thirty years later,

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and in the meantime, the justice
system and the court of public opinion definitely

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still struggle with issues such as victim
blaming and believing accusers in rape cases and

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in domestic file cases too. Hi, it's Sean and John from Sins and

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As we mentioned in parts one and two

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of our coverage of Camille's case,
Gary met the woman who had become his

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first wife, Camille Dardaines, during
his clemency hearings. Camille was following the

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trial and hearings as a lot of
Americans were at the time, and she

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was interested in meeting Gary, so
she came to the hearings and gave him

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a white flower. The two started
dating once Gary had been paroled. Their

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relationship progressed extremely quickly. Gary proposed
to Camille in September of nineteen eighty five.

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He did this by cooking her a
lobster dinner and popped the question with

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champagne and a diamond ring. Camille
said that she never had any doubts about

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Gary or his innocence. Along with
everything else Gary did, this engagement was

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huge national news there was a blurb
about it in Time magazine. Gary and

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Camille were celebrities. They appeared together
on Good Morning America and you can actually

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go see the video of that,
and if you go to find Camille dot

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com, they actually have the video
of that link. It's really worth watching.

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Life was going really well for both
of them. They used the money

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that Kathleen had given Gary from the
book sales to start their new life together.

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They each bought a car, they
rented an apartment, bought new furniture,

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and of course, as you do, awe in Las Vegas in late

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nineteen eighty five. However, as
stated before, Gary was struggling with life

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after incarceration. He was drinking very
heavily, and as a convicted felon,

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he was out of work and struggling
to find a job. Gary was living

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with the stigma of his conviction,
with doubt over his innocence, and had

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been thrown into the limelight, gaining
semi celebrity status. In the mid to

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late nineteen eighties. There are quite
a few news articles about the couple,

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their romance, and their future plans. Gary's life with the subject of water

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cooler conversations and probably Thanksgiving table conflicts. In our research, we found articles

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written about Gary with titles such as
born to Lose, and editorials written where

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his life was characterized where he was
characterized as a dropout and a loser.

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Editorials about Gary also appeared where people
gave opinions where they offered that he should

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have had his genitals removed or he
should have been sent to the chair.

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Can you imagine what the Reddit threads
or tweet would have been like if this

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happened today. All of that put
pressure on Gary and his relationship with Camille.

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Gary stated, quote, I was
living a nightmare. I couldn't escape.

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I got sick and tired of trying
to prove I was innocent, so

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I crawled into a shell and then
I didn't know how to get out of

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it. Unquote, They and Camille
and Gary, they ended up blowing through

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that money. They got evicted from
their apartment, so they moved in with

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Gary's mom, Barbara, who was
still living in that same Chicago suburb.

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In January of nineteen eighty seven,
Kamille and Gary's daughter, Ashley, was

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born, and on August second,
nineteen eighty seven, Gary and Camille got

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into a serious physical fight. It
was a Sunday afternoon and Gary and Camille

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took Ashley to the beach to have
a picnic, and they said they drank

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a six pack. They went to
hang out with some friends and that evening,

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Camille was driving the car home and
the two of them got into an

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argument. Camille stopped the car,
it said in the middle of the street.

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Gary then hit Camille as she tried
to get out of the car.

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Gary grabbed baby Ashley and ran away
down the street, so Camille chased him.

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She then saw police car driving by
and she flagged down the officer.

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She told him that Gary was drunk, that he had threatened to kill their

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baby, and that he had beaten
her and ran off with Ashley. Thankfully,

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Gary was found nearby sitting in an
alley and an alley with Ashley,

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and Ashley was safe and John and
I want to stress again that there is

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no excuse for Gary's behavior, but
he was struggling with financial problems, unemployment,

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alcohol abuse, and dealing with a
traumatic experience of being incarcerated. Gary

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was arrested and charged with domestic battery
and just a reminder at this time,

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Gary is only on parole and if
he violated his parole, he would be

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sent back to prison to complete his
sentence of twenty five to fifty years.

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His hearing was set for August twenty
seventh, and he was held without bail

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pending the hearing. During that hearing
before the parole Board, Gary testified quote

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said I'd kill the kid before I
let Camille take her away on quote,

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and he admitted to drinking a lot
that night. Camille would not testify against

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him, however, she said she
didn't want him to go to jail for

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what had happened. Even without Camille's
testimony, the Parole Board revoked Gary's parole

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on September fourth, nineteen eighty seven. The remaining sixteen years on his sentence

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were reinstated, so interestingly, and
sort of shockingly, Governor Thompson comes to

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his aid one last time. On
December twenty fourth, nineteen eighty seven,

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the Governor decided to release Gary again
for what he called one last chance.

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I find that interesting too. I
think we read that Camille had asked the

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governor to let him out since it
was Christmas. But just a few days

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later, it was reported in the
news that Camille told Gary when he got

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home that day that she wanted a
separation, and on December twenty sixth,

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nineteen eighty seven, Gary got into
a fight at the Zigzag Lounge after he

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refused to pay for his food.
Apparently he ordered a sandwich and the sandwich

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came topped with peppers that he didn't
order. He did not like peppers,

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yes, not. He pushed the
sixty seven year old cook, a woman

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named Mary Slaughter, and he then
punctured or cut her hand somehow with what

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was reported as an unknown object.
Gary reportedly yelled racial slurs and obscenities at

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Mary and another employee, Marie Williams, and one of the women slapped Gary

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and called him a rapist. Gary
was arrested and charged with two misdemeanors,

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disorderly conduct and battery. This was
Gary's sixth arrest since he had been let

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out on parole. The two employees, however, decided to drop the charges

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against Gary. They didn't say why, but Gary's attorney made a statement that

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it was probably because the two women
had instigated the fight. Gary's attorney said,

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quote, one thing led to another
and something got out of hand.

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Unquote. His attorney stated, Gary
was pushed over the edge and began drinking

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when Camille, his wife, said
she would be seeking divorce. Even though

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the charges were dropped, Gary being
drunk was a violation of his parole,

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of course, and the Illinois Department
of Corrections placed a parole hold on Gary

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to keep him in jail until his
Prisoner of View board hearing on February seventeenth,

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nineteen eighty eight. It turned out
that Gary didn't call his parole officer

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on December twenty fourth, like he
was supposed to, so the board found

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him guilty of what's called a technical
violation and he was ordered to return to

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jail for six months. He was
not actually ordered to complete his full sentence

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though. We're just going to take
a quick break and hear from our friends

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over at Missing Magnolia's about their awesome
podcast, which you should subscribe to right

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00:16:56.600 --> 00:17:00.320
now. The Missing Magnolia's podcast tells
the story of the missing and murdered.

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Ultimately, these kids went to stay
custody and they never came out. Together

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00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:10.720
with Missing Persons expert doctor Michelle Jawny's
We Uncover the real true crime experience.

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00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:12.920
Every time we do another interview,
I'm like, how do we find so

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00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:17.720
many badass women. We hear from
victims who turned their pain into something positive.

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00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:19.799
We didn't find out too we're eleven
or twelve years old that our mom

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00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:23.480
was murdered in Times Square, It
said Mickey Schunich fought for her life.

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00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:29.119
An expert who sank outside the box
to sell cases. Nice scour missing Person's

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00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:33.599
database is like namous to see if
they're uploaded to that database. Subscribe to

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00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:37.240
Missing Magnolia's on Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you get your podcasts today.

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In August of nineteen eighty eight,
at the conclusion of Gary serving his six

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month sentence, Gary was involuntarily transferred
into a state run treatment facility for alcohol

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and substance abuse disorders. While Gary
was serving his time for the parole violation,

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his attorney, Thomas Breen, was
hard at work trying to prove Gary's

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innocence. Breen had read about a
new DNA test that was being compared to

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the uniqueness of fingerprints. On January
seventh, nineteen eighty eight, Green's petition

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for access to Kathleen's underwear for DNA
testing was granted. The AG's office had

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no objection, and due to a
jurisdictional issue, the final decision was made

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by who else, Governor Thompson.
Based on Thompson's order, the seamen on

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the underwear underwent a new type of
DNA testing known as PCR polymerase chain reaction

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testing. The DNA pulled from the
evidence was tested against blood samples provided by

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Gary and Kathleen's boyfriend in nineteen seventy
seven, David Byrne. On August fifteenth,

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nineteen eighty eight, Edward Blake,
a forensic scientist in California, notified

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the Governor, the prosecutors, and
Gary's attorney that the PCR testing had positively

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excluded Gary and positively included David as
the source of the seamen, and the

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next day Tom ms Breen, Gary's
attorney requested that Governor Thompson grant Gary unconditional

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clemency based on actual innocence. For
some reason, Governor Thompson decided he wasn't

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ready to do that at the time. Gary was in the alcohol treatment program,

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and Thompson stated he wanted to be
assured that these test results were accurate

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and he wanted the Prisoner Review Board
to weigh in on the decision. After

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nine months of both Gary and his
attorney waiting for the board to make a

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decision. Gary's attorney went to the
media with the results and filed a new

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petition for post conviction relief on May
third, nineteen eighty nine. On August

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fourteenth, nineteen eighty nine, the
hearing was held and the judge ruled that

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the DNA testing results were admissible.
The prosecution admitted the error in Gary's conviction

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and joined Gary's defense attorney in his
motion to vacate the conviction. All the

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charges against Gary were dropped. The
conviction was dismissed, and Gary was exonerated

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of the rape and kidnapping charges and
was free from the challenges of parole that

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were hanging over his head. Twelve
years after Gary was arrested and four years

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after Kathleen had first recanted her accusation. It's reported that Gary smiled at his

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brothers and sisters and then jokingly pinched
his arm, and they jokingly pinched his

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arm so Gary would know he wasn't
dreaming, and Gary said, quote,

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it's over. It's really over,
unquote. According to People Magazine in an

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article published in nineteen eighty nine,
shortly after his exoneration, Gary was working

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as a part time construction worker.
He was planning to start college that fall

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and was interested in starting a career
in counseling. In August of nineteen eighty

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nine, Gary's wife, Camille,
did formerly file for divorce. She mentioned

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that Gary had a violent and ungovernable
temper, but things were not over between

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them. In September of nineteen eighty
nine, Gary was arrested at Camille's home

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for trespassing. According to the Cook
County Sheriff, Camille and Gary had been

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working on repairing their relationship, and
Camille gave gave Gary a key to her

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apartment. It's not clear exactly what
happened between them, but at some point

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Camille asked for the key back and
Gary refused to return it. Camille traveled

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to Las Vegas, presumably to visit
her mother and prepare for her eventual move,

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and when she came back to her
place, she found Gary in her

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apartment. He refused to leave,
and she had him arrested for trespassing.

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Gary posted bail, and during the
October sixth, nineteen eighty nine hearing,

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the charges against Gary were dropped because
Camille was nine minutes late to the hearing.

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Camille then made the decision to move
to Las Vegas with Ashley, and

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parts one and two of episode six
of Sinson Survivors detail her disappearance. Lawyers

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filed for full pardon for Gary from
Governor George Ryan, which was finally granted

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in two thousand and two. On
August twenty fifth, two thousand and three,

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the Illinois Court of Claims awarded Gary
one hundred and twenty thousand dollars,

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and we also saw one source that
said he was compensated just over sixty thousand

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dollars, so that part's not entirely
clear for his wrongful conviction. After his

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full pardon in two thousand and two, it was reported that Gary quote has

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led a stable life and has been
involved in a stable relationship and has not

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had a drop of alcohol since he
joined Alcoholics anonymous. He is also the

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one who raises his daughter unquote as
of two thousand and two. At this

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time, Gary was living in the
South suburbs of Chicago, but was unemployed

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from work in construction due to a
disability requiring a hip replacement. From a

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two thousand and two article, his
daughter Ashley is still actively seeking her missing

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mother. Gary's first wife, Camille
Kathleen Webb passed away in two thousand and

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eight at the age of forty six
after a six year battle with cancer,

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leaving behind her husband and four children. At the time of her death,

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Gary was reported to be living a
quiet life in the Chicago suburbs to stay

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under the radar and wanting to put
all of this behind him. As we

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mentioned, Gary's case made history as
he was the first person ever exonerated using

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DNA evidence, which we all see
now as a standard for proving guilt or

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innocence. Since Gary's exoneration in nineteen
eighty nine, according to the Innocence Project,

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guess how many wrongly convicted people have
been exonerated based on DNA tests since

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nineteen eighty nine. Since nineteen eighty
nine, two hundred more three hundred,

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three hundred and seventy five wrongly convicted
people. The average age of those people

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when they were convicted is twenty six. The average age at exoneration is forty

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three. Wow. How many total
years do you think these people have served?

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The wrongly convicted people? Yes,
well, you said there's three hundred

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and seventy five, so I would
say three thousand, five thou two hundred

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and eighty four total years served by
these people. Sixty nine percent of the

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convictions included eyewitness testimony, forty three
percent involved misapplication of forensic science, just

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like this case did. And as
far as the demographics go, nobody's going

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to find this one surprising. What
percentage do you think are African American of

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00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:38.160
wrongly convicted people? Correct, more
than half sixty percent, but surprisingly thirty

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one percent are Caucasian and eight percent
are Latino. Oh okay, So,

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as as usual when we share statistics
on sins and survivors, they are horrifying,

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but like you said, not at
all surprising. Thank you all for

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00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:57.039
joining us for Gary Story. We
hope you all found it as captivating as

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00:24:57.039 --> 00:25:02.200
we both did. It's a piece
of true crime history. Again, Gary's

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00:25:02.200 --> 00:25:06.119
first wife, Camille Dardanes Dotson,
has been missing since nineteen ninety four,

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00:25:06.440 --> 00:25:08.799
and if you haven't yet listened to
Camille Story, please download parts one and

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00:25:08.839 --> 00:25:14.599
two of episode six and be sure
to join the Fine Camille Facebook page and

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00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:19.039
support her family who is still searching
for answers. Thanks as always for listening,

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00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:51.119
and remember, what happens here happens
everywhere. Thanks for listening. Visit

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00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:56.519
sinspod dot co, slash subscribe for
exclusive bonus content and to listen ad free.

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00:25:56.440 --> 00:26:00.359
Remember to like and follow us on
Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and

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00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:06.000
threads at Sins and Survivors. If
you're enjoying the podcast, please leave us

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a review on your podcast platform of
choice. You can contact us at Questions

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00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:14.720
at sins Andsurvivors dot com. If
you are someone you know as affected by

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00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:18.160
domestic violence or needs support, please
reach out to local resources or the National

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00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:22.400
Domestic Violence Hotline. A list of
resources is available on our website, Sins

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00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:26.880
and Survivors dot com. Sins and
Survivors, a Las Vegas true crime podcast,

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00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:30.599
is research, written and produced by
your hosts Sean and John. The

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00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:34.440
information shared in this podcast is accurate
at the time of recording. If you

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00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:37.920
have questions, concerns, or corrections, please email us. Links to source

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00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:44.279
material for this episode can be found
on our website, Sinsensurvivors dot com.

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00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:48.240
The views and opinions expressed in this
podcast are solely those of the podcast creators,

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00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:53.039
hosts, and their guests. All
individuals are innocent until proven guilty.

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00:26:53.839 --> 00:26:59.960
This content does not constitute legal advice. Listeners are encouraged to consult with legal

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00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:00.200
professionals for guidance.