Guilty Until Proven Innocent - Gary Dotson - Part 2

0:00 To listen to ad free episodes and premium bonus content. Visit sinspod dot co slash Apple to subscribe on the Apple Podcast app on your mobile device. Hey, listeners, we want to hear from you. Head over to our fan list page and send us your questions, leave us voicemail, or subscribe to ad free and exclusive bonus content. Visit fan list dot com, slash sins and Survivors to connect with us today. The following episode discusses topics related to domestic violence, including detailed accounts and descriptions that some listeners might find distressing or triggering. Listener discretion is advised. In part one of episode eight, we cover the beginning of Gary Dotson's story. Gary was found guilty of raping Kathleen Crowell in nineteen seventy nine. Six years later, Kathleen recanted her testimony, saying she was never raped at all, and she made the whole story up because she was afraid she might be pregnant at sixteen. She was afraid this would blow up her life with her foster family. Kathleen did a meeting tour to apologize to Gary, to prove his innocence and to try and have him released from prison. Gary was granted an evidentiary hearing in April of nineteen eighty five and had a taste of freedom as he was out on bail pending the hearing. Despite Kathleen's attempts to persuade the judge, he refused to accept Kathleen's new testimony that she had lied in nineteen seventy seven. Gary's hopes of being released from prison were crushed. Hi, and Welcome to Sins and Survivors,

1:34 a Las Vegas true crime podcast where we focus on cases that deal with domestic violence. I'm your host Sean, and with me, as always, is the one and only John. I am the only John in the room. For these two episodes, we're kind of stepping out of where we the kind of cases we normally cover. But this is part two of Gary Dotson's story, and we pick it up with Judge Samuels revoking Gary's bond at the conclusion of the evidence Cherry hearing, and sending Gary back to prison. This decision by Judge Samuels had an immediate backlash and there was a serious public outcry. Seventy thousand people signed a petition that the governor of Illinois, James Thompson released Gary Dotson and calls, faxes telegraphs started arriving at the prosecutor's office. They definitely had an effect because Governor Jim Thompson was swayed by what the people were saying and he saw Gary Dotson as a way to garner some good publicity.

2:32 At the time, Governor Thompson was dealing with some very bad press after his administration had mishandled a serious salmonella outbreak where multiple people died and more than seventeen thousand fell ill. So the governor decided that he was going to grant Gary a clemency hearing, and he decided that he himself would preside over the hearing, becoming the first governor ever to do so. And it's important to remember that in the mid eighties, cable TV was growing in popularity, but it was still pretty young. At the time, CNN was known as the Cable News Network. Court TV was not created until nineteen ninety one. However, the popularity of showing the Klaus von Bulau attempted murder trials on TV had gotten high ratings on networks like NBC and CBS. The press describes people replacing their daytime soap operas with watching the trial footage instead. And the whole thing was an absolute media circus, and this happened well before cases you've probably heard about or remember, like Casey, Anthony or OJ. Kathleen campaigned hard for Gary's innocence. She spent most of March and April of nineteen eighty five sharing her story on TV morning shows and on Phil Donahue, who is huge. At the time, people were definitely talking about the case, and on April twenty fourth, nineteen eighty five, Kathleen even gave testimony before the US Senate Subcommittee

4:02 on Juvenile Rape Victims and again apologized and asserted Gary's innocence. She herself wrote an article published in People magazine called Trying to Make It Right, and her photo was on the cover of that issue. Governor Thompson definitely saw this as a chance to get some publicity nationwide, and one columnist for the Chicago Tribune later described him as being the ring master of this media circus. More than one hundred and fifty reporters, both print and broadcast journalists covered the hearing. CNN, the cable news network, broadcast the hearings live and reached thirty two million households nationwide. The local CBS station preempted all of its scheduled programming to do a live broadcast of the hearing. It's reported that Thompson, a former prosecutor, really put on a performance in front of the cameras and the crowded hearing room. He grilled witnesses, discussed the evidence, and caused the audience to gasp as he held up Kathleen stained underwear circus. He also tried to cross examine Gary, being very re condescending to him. He made any inappropriate jokes about Gary drinking hooch in prison, and he was extremely patronizing to Gary, at one point asking if he would be a good boy if he were granted clemency. At the end of the three day hearing, the Illinois Prison Review Board voted unanimously to deny Dotson clemency. However, Thompson commuted Dotson's sentence

5:35 to time served, but also claimed that Gary's trial had been fair and that the evidence of his guilt was stronger than ever. He was able to have it both ways, letting Gary out of prison, but doing it by avoiding having to admit that the justice system in Illinois had been wrong. This wasn't a pardon or an exoneration, just early parole for Gary. So on May twelfth, nineteen eighty five, after serving six years, Gary was finally out of prison. According to the Spokane Chronicle, Gary's face lit up when he walked into his family's home. Twenty Five people friends and family were there to celebrate with him. His brother John said, quote, I missed him, and I love him, and I'm glad he's back. Unquote. A sign on the door of the house said Gary Dotson is innocent and loved and welcomed back home by his family and friends. Gary said he just wanted to sit down and relax. His sister, Debbie, said he was home and he was happy. Kathleen continued her media tour, but began making appearances with Gary.

6:45 She apologized on The Today Show to Gary's mother and asked for her forgiveness. Gary also appeared with Kathleen on The Today Show, telling Jane Paully that he wasn't angry with Kathleen, he was angry and frustrated with the system. Kathleen and Gary also appeared on ABC's Good Morning America and on the CBS Morning News show. A particularly infamous and inappropriate incident happened on CBS Phyllis George ended her interview of Kathleen and Gary by asking them to shake hands. They both offered a weak handshake, and then Phyllis asked how about a hug. Kathleen and Gary were shocked and they declined to hug each other. Phyllis later said that she didn't mean to offend anyone with that request, but since Gary was effectively just on parole not declared innocent, there was still doubt hanging over him.

7:35 In fact, a former cellmate of his claim that Gary had at one point confessed, but that cellmate failed a lie detector test. Gary was getting offers on turning his life story into a movie. That's how big this whole media circus was. This is definitely some early true crime history. Kathleen wrote a book called Forgive Me about her life and the accusation. She doated all of the proceeds from the book to Gary about seventeen five hundred dollars, which would be about fifty thousand dollars in twenty twenty three. Money and Gloria Allred, who many may know from representing victims in high profile lawsuits such as those against Anthony Wiener and R Kelly. Gloria already had concerns that Kathleen's recantation would have lasting negative effects on victims being believed in rape cases. She stated that she hope the case quote does not demoralize rape victims who feel they may not be believed unquote. The me too movement didn't happen until thirty years later, and in the meantime, the justice system and the court of public opinion definitely still struggle with issues such as victim blaming and believing accusers in rape cases and in domestic file cases too. Hi, it's Sean and John from Sins and Survivors. We think it's so important to bring you new podcast episodes centered on the victims of domestic violence, but we need your help. Head over to sinspod dot co, Slash, Patreon and join one of our membership tiers starting

9:09 at only three dollars a month with a discount. If you purchase a full year, you get access to our behind the scenes Swing Shift episodes, where we talk about the episode right after we record it and tell you more about our theories on the case going beyond what you just listened to, and you'll also get ad free versions of all episodes and will even send you members only shwag. You get all this and you can feel good about yourself that you're helping defray the cost of producing the show every week. So head over to sinspod dot co slash Patreon today. As we mentioned in parts one and two of our coverage of Camille's case, Gary met the woman who had become his first wife, Camille Dardaines, during his clemency hearings. Camille was following the trial and hearings as a lot of Americans were at the time, and she was interested in meeting Gary, so she came to the hearings and gave him a white flower. The two started dating once Gary had been paroled. Their relationship progressed extremely quickly. Gary proposed to Camille in September of nineteen eighty five.

10:16 He did this by cooking her a lobster dinner and popped the question with champagne and a diamond ring. Camille said that she never had any doubts about Gary or his innocence. Along with everything else Gary did, this engagement was huge national news there was a blurb about it in Time magazine. Gary and Camille were celebrities. They appeared together on Good Morning America and you can actually go see the video of that, and if you go to find Camille dot com, they actually have the video of that link. It's really worth watching. Life was going really well for both of them. They used the money that Kathleen had given Gary from the book sales to start their new life together. They each bought a car, they rented an apartment, bought new furniture, and of course, as you do, awe in Las Vegas in late nineteen eighty five. However, as stated before, Gary was struggling with life after incarceration. He was drinking very heavily, and as a convicted felon, he was out of work and struggling to find a job. Gary was living with the stigma of his conviction, with doubt over his innocence, and had been thrown into the limelight, gaining semi celebrity status. In the mid to late nineteen eighties. There are quite a few news articles about the couple, their romance, and their future plans. Gary's life with the subject of water cooler conversations and probably Thanksgiving table conflicts. In our research, we found articles written about Gary with titles such as born to Lose, and editorials written where his life was characterized where he was characterized as a dropout and a loser.

11:48 Editorials about Gary also appeared where people gave opinions where they offered that he should have had his genitals removed or he should have been sent to the chair. Can you imagine what the Reddit threads or tweet would have been like if this happened today. All of that put pressure on Gary and his relationship with Camille. Gary stated, quote, I was living a nightmare. I couldn't escape. I got sick and tired of trying to prove I was innocent, so I crawled into a shell and then I didn't know how to get out of it. Unquote, They and Camille and Gary, they ended up blowing through that money. They got evicted from their apartment, so they moved in with Gary's mom, Barbara, who was still living in that same Chicago suburb.

12:28 In January of nineteen eighty seven, Kamille and Gary's daughter, Ashley, was born, and on August second, nineteen eighty seven, Gary and Camille got into a serious physical fight. It was a Sunday afternoon and Gary and Camille took Ashley to the beach to have a picnic, and they said they drank a six pack. They went to hang out with some friends and that evening, Camille was driving the car home and the two of them got into an argument. Camille stopped the car, it said in the middle of the street. Gary then hit Camille as she tried to get out of the car. Gary grabbed baby Ashley and ran away down the street, so Camille chased him. She then saw police car driving by and she flagged down the officer. She told him that Gary was drunk, that he had threatened to kill their baby, and that he had beaten her and ran off with Ashley. Thankfully, Gary was found nearby sitting in an alley and an alley with Ashley, and Ashley was safe and John and I want to stress again that there is no excuse for Gary's behavior, but he was struggling with financial problems, unemployment, alcohol abuse, and dealing with a traumatic experience of being incarcerated. Gary was arrested and charged with domestic battery and just a reminder at this time, Gary is only on parole and if he violated his parole, he would be sent back to prison to complete his sentence of twenty five to fifty years.

13:48 His hearing was set for August twenty seventh, and he was held without bail pending the hearing. During that hearing before the parole Board, Gary testified quote said I'd kill the kid before I let Camille take her away on quote, and he admitted to drinking a lot that night. Camille would not testify against him, however, she said she didn't want him to go to jail for what had happened. Even without Camille's testimony, the Parole Board revoked Gary's parole on September fourth, nineteen eighty seven. The remaining sixteen years on his sentence were reinstated, so interestingly, and sort of shockingly, Governor Thompson comes to his aid one last time. On December twenty fourth, nineteen eighty seven, the Governor decided to release Gary again for what he called one last chance.

14:35 I find that interesting too. I think we read that Camille had asked the governor to let him out since it was Christmas. But just a few days later, it was reported in the news that Camille told Gary when he got home that day that she wanted a separation, and on December twenty sixth, nineteen eighty seven, Gary got into a fight at the Zigzag Lounge after he refused to pay for his food. Apparently he ordered a sandwich and the sandwich came topped with peppers that he didn't order. He did not like peppers, yes, not. He pushed the sixty seven year old cook, a woman named Mary Slaughter, and he then punctured or cut her hand somehow with what was reported as an unknown object. Gary reportedly yelled racial slurs and obscenities at Mary and another employee, Marie Williams, and one of the women slapped Gary and called him a rapist. Gary was arrested and charged with two misdemeanors, disorderly conduct and battery. This was Gary's sixth arrest since he had been let out on parole. The two employees, however, decided to drop the charges against Gary. They didn't say why, but Gary's attorney made a statement that it was probably because the two women had instigated the fight. Gary's attorney said, quote, one thing led to another and something got out of hand.

15:52 Unquote. His attorney stated, Gary was pushed over the edge and began drinking when Camille, his wife, said she would be seeking divorce. Even though the charges were dropped, Gary being drunk was a violation of his parole, of course, and the Illinois Department of Corrections placed a parole hold on Gary to keep him in jail until his Prisoner of View board hearing on February seventeenth, nineteen eighty eight. It turned out that Gary didn't call his parole officer on December twenty fourth, like he was supposed to, so the board found him guilty of what's called a technical violation and he was ordered to return to jail for six months. He was not actually ordered to complete his full sentence though. We're just going to take a quick break and hear from our friends over at Missing Magnolia's about their awesome podcast, which you should subscribe to right now. The Missing Magnolia's podcast tells the story of the missing and murdered.

17:00 Ultimately, these kids went to stay custody and they never came out. Together with Missing Persons expert doctor Michelle Jawny's We Uncover the real true crime experience. Every time we do another interview, I'm like, how do we find so many badass women. We hear from victims who turned their pain into something positive. We didn't find out too we're eleven or twelve years old that our mom was murdered in Times Square, It said Mickey Schunich fought for her life. An expert who sank outside the box to sell cases. Nice scour missing Person's database is like namous to see if they're uploaded to that database. Subscribe to Missing Magnolia's on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts today. In August of nineteen eighty eight, at the conclusion of Gary serving his six month sentence, Gary was involuntarily transferred into a state run treatment facility for alcohol and substance abuse disorders. While Gary was serving his time for the parole violation, his attorney, Thomas Breen, was hard at work trying to prove Gary's innocence. Breen had read about a new DNA test that was being compared to the uniqueness of fingerprints. On January seventh, nineteen eighty eight, Green's petition for access to Kathleen's underwear for DNA testing was granted. The AG's office had no objection, and due to a jurisdictional issue, the final decision was made by who else, Governor Thompson. Based on Thompson's order, the seamen on the underwear underwent a new type of DNA testing known as PCR polymerase chain reaction testing. The DNA pulled from the evidence was tested against blood samples provided by

18:34 Gary and Kathleen's boyfriend in nineteen seventy seven, David Byrne. On August fifteenth, nineteen eighty eight, Edward Blake, a forensic scientist in California, notified the Governor, the prosecutors, and Gary's attorney that the PCR testing had positively excluded Gary and positively included David as the source of the seamen, and the next day Tom ms Breen, Gary's attorney requested that Governor Thompson grant Gary unconditional clemency based on actual innocence. For some reason, Governor Thompson decided he wasn't ready to do that at the time. Gary was in the alcohol treatment program, and Thompson stated he wanted to be assured that these test results were accurate and he wanted the Prisoner Review Board to weigh in on the decision. After nine months of both Gary and his attorney waiting for the board to make a decision. Gary's attorney went to the media with the results and filed a new petition for post conviction relief on May third, nineteen eighty nine. On August fourteenth, nineteen eighty nine, the hearing was held and the judge ruled that the DNA testing results were admissible. The prosecution admitted the error in Gary's conviction and joined Gary's defense attorney in his motion to vacate the conviction. All the charges against Gary were dropped. The conviction was dismissed, and Gary was exonerated of the rape and kidnapping charges and was free from the challenges of parole that were hanging over his head. Twelve years after Gary was arrested and four years

20:04 after Kathleen had first recanted her accusation. It's reported that Gary smiled at his brothers and sisters and then jokingly pinched his arm, and they jokingly pinched his arm so Gary would know he wasn't dreaming, and Gary said, quote, it's over. It's really over, unquote. According to People Magazine in an article published in nineteen eighty nine, shortly after his exoneration, Gary was working as a part time construction worker. He was planning to start college that fall and was interested in starting a career in counseling. In August of nineteen eighty nine, Gary's wife, Camille, did formerly file for divorce. She mentioned that Gary had a violent and ungovernable temper, but things were not over between them. In September of nineteen eighty nine, Gary was arrested at Camille's home for trespassing. According to the Cook County Sheriff, Camille and Gary had been working on repairing their relationship, and Camille gave gave Gary a key to her apartment. It's not clear exactly what happened between them, but at some point Camille asked for the key back and Gary refused to return it. Camille traveled to Las Vegas, presumably to visit her mother and prepare for her eventual move, and when she came back to her place, she found Gary in her apartment. He refused to leave, and she had him arrested for trespassing.

21:19 Gary posted bail, and during the October sixth, nineteen eighty nine hearing, the charges against Gary were dropped because Camille was nine minutes late to the hearing. Camille then made the decision to move to Las Vegas with Ashley, and parts one and two of episode six of Sinson Survivors detail her disappearance. Lawyers filed for full pardon for Gary from Governor George Ryan, which was finally granted in two thousand and two. On August twenty fifth, two thousand and three, the Illinois Court of Claims awarded Gary one hundred and twenty thousand dollars, and we also saw one source that said he was compensated just over sixty thousand dollars, so that part's not entirely clear for his wrongful conviction. After his full pardon in two thousand and two, it was reported that Gary quote has led a stable life and has been involved in a stable relationship and has not had a drop of alcohol since he joined Alcoholics anonymous. He is also the one who raises his daughter unquote as of two thousand and two. At this time, Gary was living in the South suburbs of Chicago, but was unemployed from work in construction due to a disability requiring a hip replacement. From a two thousand and two article, his daughter Ashley is still actively seeking her missing mother. Gary's first wife, Camille Kathleen Webb passed away in two thousand and eight at the age of forty six after a six year battle with cancer,

22:51 leaving behind her husband and four children. At the time of her death, Gary was reported to be living a quiet life in the Chicago suburbs to stay under the radar and wanting to put all of this behind him. As we mentioned, Gary's case made history as he was the first person ever exonerated using DNA evidence, which we all see now as a standard for proving guilt or innocence. Since Gary's exoneration in nineteen eighty nine, according to the Innocence Project, guess how many wrongly convicted people have been exonerated based on DNA tests since nineteen eighty nine. Since nineteen eighty nine, two hundred more three hundred, three hundred and seventy five wrongly convicted people. The average age of those people when they were convicted is twenty six. The average age at exoneration is forty three. Wow. How many total years do you think these people have served?

23:53 The wrongly convicted people? Yes, well, you said there's three hundred and seventy five, so I would say three thousand, five thou two hundred and eighty four total years served by these people. Sixty nine percent of the convictions included eyewitness testimony, forty three percent involved misapplication of forensic science, just like this case did. And as far as the demographics go, nobody's going to find this one surprising. What percentage do you think are African American of wrongly convicted people? Correct, more than half sixty percent, but surprisingly thirty one percent are Caucasian and eight percent are Latino. Oh okay, So, as as usual when we share statistics on sins and survivors, they are horrifying, but like you said, not at all surprising. Thank you all for joining us for Gary Story. We hope you all found it as captivating as we both did. It's a piece of true crime history. Again, Gary's first wife, Camille Dardanes Dotson, has been missing since nineteen ninety four, and if you haven't yet listened to Camille Story, please download parts one and two of episode six and be sure to join the Fine Camille Facebook page and support her family who is still searching for answers. Thanks as always for listening, and remember, what happens here happens everywhere. Thanks for listening. Visit

25:51 sinspod dot co, slash subscribe for exclusive bonus content and to listen ad free. Remember to like and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and threads at Sins and Survivors. If you're enjoying the podcast, please leave us a review on your podcast platform of choice. You can contact us at Questions at sins Andsurvivors dot com. If you are someone you know as affected by domestic violence or needs support, please reach out to local resources or the National Domestic Violence Hotline. A list of resources is available on our website, Sins and Survivors dot com. Sins and Survivors, a Las Vegas true crime podcast, is research, written and produced by your hosts Sean and John. The information shared in this podcast is accurate at the time of recording. If you have questions, concerns, or corrections, please email us. Links to source material for this episode can be found on our website, Sinsensurvivors dot com.

26:44 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast creators, hosts, and their guests. All individuals are innocent until proven guilty. This content does not constitute legal advice. Listeners are encouraged to consult with legal professionals for guidance.