Dec. 17, 2024

Empowering Language Special Presentation

Empowering Language Special Presentation
Listen to "Empowering Language Special Presentation" on Spreaker.

Today's episode is a special presentation! Shaun participated in a panel at the True Crime and Paranormal Podcast Festival in July 2023 with the lovely people from Navigating Advocacy Whitney and Melissa, along with Haley Grey to talk about Empowering...

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Season 2

Today's episode is a special presentation! Shaun participated in a panel at the True Crime and Paranormal Podcast Festival in July 2023 with the lovely people from Navigating Advocacy Whitney and Melissa, along with Haley Grey to talk about Empowering Language in Podcasting.

They recently did a webinar on that same topic, and we think youll find it interesting. There are so many expressions we use every day with problematic origins. Let us know what you think!

https://truecrimepodcastfestval.com
https://navigatingadvocacy.com
https://truecrimepodcasttraining.com

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http://sinspod.co/resources

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Hello everyone. We hope that all of you are having

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a warm and enjoyable holiday season celebrating with family and

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friends or not if that's your jam. Next week, we

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will be bringing you our annual holiday episode, Missing at

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the Holidays, and sharing with you some of the updates

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and stories of missing people from around the country in

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the hopes that someone knows something and comes forward with

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new information.

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For our subscribers, this week, we will be covering the

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story of Emma Cusack, a teen girl who was arrested

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for murdering a thirty six year old man in a

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hotel room at the Luxor last year, and the details

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of the crime and her arrests left us with many questions,

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including the fact that the media said that the two

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of them were on a date. If you're interested in

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hearing that, head over to sinspod dot co slash subscribe

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and you can join our Patreon or you can join

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Apple Podcast subscriptions. We just sent out our special holiday

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cards to thank our subscribers, and we really appreciate all

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of your support. Back in October, I was a guest

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for the monthly True Crime Podcast Training webinar with Melissa

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and Whitney from Navigating Advocacy and hosted by Hailey Gray,

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the founder of the True Crime podcast training course.

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The topic was empowering language, which you've heard Sean and

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I mentioned a few times on the podcast. We won't

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spoil it here, but it was really fun and interesting

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and you'll definitely learn something, so let us know what

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you think. You can always email us at podcast at

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Sinsansurvivors dot com.

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All Right, hello everyone, and thank you so much for

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being here at this month's True Crime podcast training webinar. Tonight.

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You were talking about empowering language and how thoughtful language

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choices shape respectful storytelling. I'm Hailey Pray, a researcher and

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for multiple podcasts and the co founder of True Current

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podcast Trainey. I'm honored to have Sean from Sins and

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Survivors podcast here with me along with Melissa and Whitney

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from Navigating Advocacy. Sean, would you mind starting us off

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and introduce yourself. No, hey, everyone, thanks for being here tonight.

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I'm Sean Malika. Like Hayley said, I'm one half of

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the hosts behind Sins and Survivors, which is a true

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crime podcast focused on Las Vegas and domestic violence. And

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I'm a law school graduate and I've worked in victim

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services probably for about twenty years now, and I'm a

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tc PT graduate. So thanks Haley, and I'm glad to

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be here. Thank you so much for being here. Melissa,

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you've been part of our webinars before, but for anyone

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who haven't been here, would you mind introducing yourself? Sure.

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I'm Melissa Linwber, one half of the podcast Navigating Advocacy,

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also co founder of Advocacy Con, a conference that brings

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together experts, nonprofits, anything with victim's families to kind of

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help them navigate this world that they have been thrown

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into together. I have two teenage boys. I live in Florida.

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There's a hurricane here right now, so that's about me.

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Oh my gosh. Well, if everything goes dark, we know

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it was the hurricane that came. Yes, it should be good.

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I think it's mainly a spy now, so okay, good.

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And then Whitney, you are always here with me. Usually

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you're behind the screen, but tonight you're in front of it.

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Can you please introduce yourself or anyone who may not

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know who you are? Sure?

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I am the other half of Navigating Advocacy. I am

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also a co founder of Advocacy CON. I also have

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two boys, and I am a play a very small

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role in the TCPT team occasionally when they need me.

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It's more than occasionally. She's literally tech as you see

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our text, like can you look over this? Please let

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me know if it looks okay wow. But just to

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give some background before I'm actually going to hand things

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over to Melissa to host everything tonight, I just wanted

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to give some background and say that Sean, this was

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her idea, this whole webinar. She came to Whitney and

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I month ago with an idea about how to use

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respectful language, and she wanted to talk about her expertise

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and domestic violence, which and just in victim services which come.

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You know, she has so much experience that we're very

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lucky to have her here. And then also Whitney and

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Melissa are huge advocates. They are actually the people that

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inspired me to be more hands on with families, and

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so my career would not be where it is without

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them inspiring me. And just also so lucky to learn

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from Sean and all of her experience, and she's been

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so helpful this last just over a year since we met.

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So yeah, I'm so thankful for all three of you

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being here with me tonight, helping everyone here learn. And yes,

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Jima just brought this up. So we actually did this

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pianel in Denver at True Crime Podcast Festival. We've kind

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of revamped it a little bit for this one, but

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you know, we're really excited to talk to everyone about

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language choices and how important making me. So with that,

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I'm going to turn everything over to Melissa and she's

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going to host tonight. That way I can participate in

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the conversation. So thank you, Melissa.

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Perfect Now, thank you so for those of you that

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are listening, We welcome you to share any of your ideas,

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your experiences in the chat as we go. All of

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us will really be monitoring that, so just throw them

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out there as you see fit. Please feel free to

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ask any questions related to what we're talking.

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About in the chat.

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However, if you have any questions that aren't exactly related

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to whatever we're talking about, we will have a Q

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and A at the end for you to ask those

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general types of questions. So let's start off by talking

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about what people first language is, Hayley, What is this

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type of language and why is it so important?

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Yeah, so, people first language, it's all about putting the

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individual before their circumstances.

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So it's a way of reminding ourselves that people aren't

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defined by what's happened to them or any of the

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challenges they face. For example, instead of saying a drug addict,

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we could say a person with a substance abuse disorder.

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Or rather than saying a schizophrenic, we'd say a person

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with schizophrenia.

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And this may seem like a small change, but it's

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actually a really important part of storytelling. It helps us

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honor the dignity of victims and their families by keeping

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the focus on their humanity and again, not by what's

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happened to them or a diagnosis they may have, or

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a challenge they face anything like that. Again, it just

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helps us focus on the person and who they are.

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And when we're using people first language, we're acknowledging that

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they're more than their experiences. They're real people with real lives,

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loved ones and stories that deserve respect, to empathy and

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all of this is a simple ship that can make

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a big difference and how we approach and understand True

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Crimes series. Yeah. I really love that, Haley. It's just

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so important. These labels that we use on people, they're

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just so weighted. And if we can avoid labeling someone

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as you know, a diabetic or it's schizophrenic and put

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their person self first, I think it just helps everyone

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build on that empathy to connect with these people and

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the stories we're trying to tell. Yeah, I agree.

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I think this is something that I learned in the

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four years that we've been a podcast. It was part

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of that evolution of when you tell a story, you

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are taking on responsibility for that story and for that

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subject matter and treating these people with respect and showing

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that they are human and putting them first before whatever

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their story, whatever negative things in their story or even

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positive things.

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Put the person first. It makes a world of difference

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in the storytelling, right. I think when you say like

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a schitzoph like that person's a schizophrenic, like that's what

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people are going to immediately focus on and not the

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fact that they're actually a person and their person comes

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before their diagnosis or challenges or things like that. So

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it is definitely something that I think I still catch

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myself in, you know, But it's just I think what

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we want everyone to take away from this is just

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to be mindful of what you're saying. Like, you're not

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going to be perfect. None of us are perfect. I

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think we all say at least one thing that we're like, oh,

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I really have to work on that, you know. So,

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but it's just about being mindful and just remembering that

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we're trying to put the person first. And I had

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some other examples here that I wanted to bring up,

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and so there are other words that can kind of have,

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you know, like a negative connotation again with like when

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we say a drug addict that you usually has, you know,

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a stigma to it. But you know other things that

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we could change when we're talking about respect, the language

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instead of ex convict or you know something like that,

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or an ex stell and you could say a person

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with a history of incarceration or formerly incarcerated person, and

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that just puts it on like they are a person,

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that's their past. You know, we can separate the two

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and you know, instead of This is a big one

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that I think a lot of people in the true

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crimefield have made changes. But we don't really say prostitute

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anymore because that again has negative connotations to it. So

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you could say a person involved in sex work or

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a person who has engaged in sex work. It gets

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a little tricky. I don't know if any of you

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have dealt with this before, but if you're working on

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a case where somebody is charged with prostitution, that's literally

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would like crime, and so it can be a little

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hard to know how to word that. But again, just

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trying to remind people that it's you know, a person

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and then whatever is going on. Yeah, so yeah, sorry, Haley.

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One that popped up for us quite a bit.

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And this is something that I've noticed in the Austin

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community where I live. We have a ton of unhoused

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population here in Austin. And when we first worked with

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Vlad's family, Vlad at Kassele's family, he was a big

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part in the unhoused community. He volunteered there, he worked there,

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he was unhoused for a time being and could potentially

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still be a member of the unhoused population. And I

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think that that was a big one for me because

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I've heard homeless so much my whole life. Transitioning to

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member of the unhoused or member of the unsheltered community

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was really it was one of the light bulb moments

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for me.

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Yeah, some of those words are so they feel so

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heavy with like the weight of stigma or just assumptions,

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and it's we've worked on this, like our whole life, right,

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we're all kind of part of the same generation. We've

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seen our language and what's acceptable evolve over time, and

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I think it's great for all of us to continue

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to be in that evolution. Like you said, none of

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us are perfect in this, but we're always taking in

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new information and trying to, you know, do better and

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be better. And I think that's a great example of

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that Whitney just how you know, if we label someone

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as homeless, it gives people pictures in their mind of

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what that looks like, what kind of person they are.

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So if we can flip it around and describe it

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as someone who's experiencing being unhoused, it just kind of

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pulls that stigma off of them, and then you can

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really see somebody like Vlad come through and not be

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weighed down by stereotypes. Right, that's so true, because you know,

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somebody experiencing homelessness like that looks comple That could be

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completely different for a lot of people. Like I don't

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know if anyone else fails the way, but I love

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Reddit because you can see so many people's experiences, and

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I've seen things where people are like, I'm part of

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the homeless community and I live out of my car,

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Like I have a nine to five forty hour drop week,

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but I can't afford to have like to have, you know,

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a home, and so I live out of my car.

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And so it really is a spectrum of things, and

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we don't want to, you know, just like put people

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in a box and again make those assumptions of how

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somebody is living. So I really like having these conversations

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with people because I always learned something new. Like Whitney said,

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before we did the project with Latis family last year,

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I probably didn't say unsheltered community or experiencing homelessness because

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it just was ran something that I thought about. But

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then after I was you know, putting we were putting

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together the materials and I was talking to people. I

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was like, no, I really need to make this change

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because it's important. So I think these are all things

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that come to you at different times in your life. Like,

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we didn't make all of these changes overnight, you know,

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the things we learned, Like, yeah, the one that I

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think I learned was like master bedroom that came with

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the Black Lives Matter movement, and I learned that master

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bedroom has like racist connotations to it. And I think

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we'll talk about this later, but that was one where

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I was like, oh my gosh, that's an easy fix.

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I just say primary, you know. So, But that came

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one time, and the unsheltered community came out a different time.

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So I will quit blabbing and that we're all still

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like students. We're all listening. We're faily talking about.

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Love it, love it. It definitely takes. It shows that

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there's a person more than just that one circumstance of

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their life. That's what I love about taking away those

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labels because that's one aspect of their life. It doesn't

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define who they are, So we should not be doing that.

253
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Okay, So I'd love to talk about how it's important

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to respect everyone in the case that you're speaking about,

255
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not just the victims.

256
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Can you guys talk a little bit about that. John

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and I. John, he's in the audience tonight, he's my

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co host. We had a case recently that we covered

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where a young woman was murdered by her boyfriend. The

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woman's name was Maureen, her boyfriend's name was Chris. Chris

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was convicted of her murder and sentenced to I believe

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it was twenty twenty to life, but still eligible to purparole.

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And he was I think about twenty one years old

264
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when he was sentenced, and just recently so. This murder

265
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happened many years ago. He ended up dying in prison

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under suspicious circumstances where it appeared, especially to his mother,

267
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that the Department of Corrections was covering up what actually

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happened to him. So, in telling the story, even though

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we see Chris as someone who committed this horrific crime,

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John and I chose our words very carefully because we

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understood that in some ways Chris himself was a victim,

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a victim of a system, of a violent system, and

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he himself was likely murdered, possibly by the people who

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were in charge of the prison in some way, so

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we did not. We wanted to understand that for her,

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his mother, an innocent person in all of this on

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some level, that she could suffer if she heard us

278
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label her son still her son. We're all the three

279
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of us are moms, you know, as you know, as being.

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Even though I might want to call him names, I

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might not have a lot of respect for him, I

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have respect for her, and I want to not put

283
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my anger out there where she might hear it, because

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she's mourning the loss of her son, and I think

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that's important. I don't know what John's staying in the chat.

286
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Don't want to say, oh, he's telling us about how

287
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oh yeah. In the marketing world, they used to say

288
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things like blacklisted and but now it's blocklisted. And this

289
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one is so crazy to me, And I'm just gonna

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go ahead and say it because I don't think people

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who watch that will be able to see the chat.

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But and this is so crazy to me. In like

293
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the IT world, they used to have terms called master

294
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and slave databases. At what point ever was that Okay,

295
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I'm literally crazy, But now the call it primary and

296
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backup or secondary, which those were words back when they

297
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named the original names. So I don't understand that, but again,

298
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this is these are his examples. Look like how important

299
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language can be, and I mean, and how important it

300
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is to incorporate purpose changes. Yeah, and be willing to

301
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I mean, for we're talking about an industry, an entire

302
00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:32.920
industry that really should be taking a look at themselves

303
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too and saying like why do we have this? And

304
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can we just get rid of it? And just like

305
00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:38.680
working towards that. I think that's like a big that

306
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can be a big ask, but hopefully there's they're looking

307
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at that, and you know they're not just the company

308
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John works for, but all companies are to get a

309
00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:50.759
look at that, because that's it's it's so offensive and

310
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it never should have happened in the first place. So

311
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it's interesting that John brought it up.

312
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My husband worked in it, and he has used those

313
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words in a much screen scale with that I can't

314
00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:04.559
comprehend because I'm not smart enough to know it. But

315
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he has mentioned those same things, and I've never until

316
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just now, like I just had that aha moment of

317
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oh my gosh, that is a thing. Why have they

318
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not changed the name of that? Because my my world

319
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didn't revolve around that. It wasn't something I used daily,

320
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so it's interesting to have those aha moments.

321
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Yeah, definitely, And I wanted to go back to Sean's

322
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point about respecting everyone. I know it can be really

323
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hard to want to respect you know, and you know,

324
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a murderer or something like that, but again, it's just

325
00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:44.720
important because their families are listening, and if their families

326
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were involved, you know they're they're hurting too. And also,

327
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for example, if you're working on a case and you

328
00:19:56.519 --> 00:20:01.000
don't and the person who is the killer was let's

329
00:20:01.079 --> 00:20:06.480
just say, a trans person, if you choose not to

330
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respect the fact that they're a trans person, then you're

331
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kind of you're offending a whole group of people and

332
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instead of just the person who you think doesn't deserve

333
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your respect. But it's like a grander scale of things.

334
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I don't think I'm able to put this into words

335
00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:26.000
very well, but basically it's like, it's not just that

336
00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:30.039
one person that you're attacking and being negative about. It's everyone.

337
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And so that's why we just have a blanket rule

338
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when we're working to just be respectful to everyone, and

339
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then you're being then yeah, you're being respectful to everyone.

340
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So anyway, I don't begun wording that. Well, but no,

341
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but you're doing great, Yeah, you're doing great. Would you're not?

342
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Just because this person had made poor decisions and did

343
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these horrible actions doesn't mean you have to be negative

344
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about that person. You could easily harm a entire subset

345
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of people that you didn't mean to by putting this

346
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person down because they have they're transgendered, or maybe they

347
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have a specific character trait, maybe they have brown hair.

348
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Who knows, you could easily harm someone unintentionally just by

349
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putting down the perpetrator.

350
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Yeah, definitely. Now I'm all for you know, you can,

351
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you know, be rude, like say rude things about their actions,

352
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what they did, but when it comes to you know,

353
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who they are, who they identify as, or any of

354
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those things, it's just not appropriate. So I guess that.

355
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I mean, that's my take on it.

356
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All right, let's talk about using trauma informed language. When

357
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would you use this, how would you use it?

358
00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:58.400
And why is it important? Uh? This, this anecdote that

359
00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:01.640
I've shared, I shared on them panel is partly what

360
00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:05.039
inspired me to approach you all to put it together

361
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:07.240
because where I was working at the time for a

362
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domestic Violence Agency, we were all working on just cleaning

363
00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:14.279
up our language and get trying to get rid of

364
00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:18.920
all the violent idioms that we use every day, because

365
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you just never know who you're talking to and it

366
00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:23.000
just might not be appropriate and it could be traumatizing.

367
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So like things like hold her feet to the fire,

368
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or I'll take a stab at it, or like I

369
00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:36.160
wish you would just kill me. I'll shoot you an email. Yeah,

370
00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:39.640
I'll shoot you an email like things like that, because

371
00:22:39.640 --> 00:22:41.920
we just have so many expressions and if you think

372
00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:43.799
about them, or you like kind of turn your ears

373
00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:45.559
on and you're like ready for them, you'll see them

374
00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:48.759
come up all the time. And we just as an

375
00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:52.200
agency kind of challenged ourselves to kind of stop using

376
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that language as much because it is it's violent. When

377
00:22:55.359 --> 00:22:58.400
it doesn't, it's just inappropriate. You're talking to someone who

378
00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:03.079
may have experience something violent, and it's just not the

379
00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:05.079
kind of environment you want to set as like a

380
00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:07.400
baseline where you're just kind of using these you know,

381
00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:09.200
you know, do you don't have to hold a gun

382
00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:12.440
to my head kind of expressions. It's it's really interesting

383
00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:17.079
how many exist in our just our American idioms. I

384
00:23:17.079 --> 00:23:20.799
think called the dams. I think, so expressions I think.

385
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:26.559
I also, it's a great one, Whitney, Yeah, that's a

386
00:23:26.599 --> 00:23:29.880
great one. I think your point to you never know

387
00:23:29.960 --> 00:23:32.960
who you're talking to is really important, and that's kind

388
00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:35.559
of how I try to approach when I've I tried

389
00:23:35.720 --> 00:23:40.680
tried to remove those things from my vocabulary because again,

390
00:23:40.759 --> 00:23:42.680
you never know who you're talking to. And then also,

391
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:46.599
I know a lot of us talk to families of

392
00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:53.160
you know, people who have gone through tragic situations, and

393
00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:55.240
you would never want to slip up and say those

394
00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:58.839
things to them. And so I think if you can

395
00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:03.160
just remember too not use those things, you'll just be

396
00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:07.640
better safe than sorry. And I you know, I would

397
00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:10.880
just really hate if I said, you know, to a

398
00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:14.079
family member like all right, I'll shoot you an email,

399
00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:17.799
and then I remember, like, oh my gosh, their loved

400
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:20.200
one was killed with a gun. And then you're like,

401
00:24:20.920 --> 00:24:23.720
why did I say that, you know, And so it's

402
00:24:23.799 --> 00:24:28.160
just really important you try and keep the again, just

403
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:33.119
keep them keep being mindful is the most important thing. Absolutely,

404
00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:34.440
absolutely so.

405
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:37.559
One of the biggest things that I have learned Melissa

406
00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:40.400
and I have learned while while going through this is

407
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:44.240
when we've talked to family members. We try not to

408
00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:48.799
say your loved one's case because it feels cold. It

409
00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:52.440
puts them in a box or a folder. It's it's

410
00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:58.559
there's no emotion there and it's not personal personal at all.

411
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:00.640
You want to say, I would love to hear.

412
00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:04.160
Your loved one's story, we of course always talk about

413
00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:07.680
that person first language. Again, we want to humanize these people,

414
00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:12.839
not minimize them to some stacks of paper or a

415
00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:15.319
dusty box in the corner of a police station. That's

416
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:18.319
that's what they're dealing with lots of time. So making

417
00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:21.759
sure you don't say case, talk about their story and

418
00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:23.599
it's just it's warmer.

419
00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:31.240
Yeah, I completely agree. I'll say something like, can I

420
00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:35.680
help spread awareness of your loved one story again, because

421
00:25:35.799 --> 00:25:43.319
case does feel so cold and it just Yeah, when

422
00:25:43.319 --> 00:25:45.400
you're working one on one with the families, you realize

423
00:25:45.400 --> 00:25:48.319
that it's more than a case to them. You know,

424
00:25:48.519 --> 00:25:52.119
it's their life, it's their story too, it's their journey,

425
00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:55.200
it's everything. And and really, like you said, of reducing

426
00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:57.680
it down to like a case file, but it's not

427
00:25:57.799 --> 00:25:59.440
an you know, it's not okay.

428
00:26:01.400 --> 00:26:03.920
This is also not something we had talked about before,

429
00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:07.400
but it's something that you actually taught me, Haley, Listen

430
00:26:07.480 --> 00:26:10.599
when they talk, because some family members speak in the

431
00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:14.519
present tense. They'll say, my loved one is and my

432
00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:18.759
loved one as opposed to my loved one was. So

433
00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:22.720
see getting to their level, seeing them where they're at,

434
00:26:22.759 --> 00:26:25.279
and making sure you're using that same tense because that's

435
00:26:25.319 --> 00:26:27.960
important to them too. They don't want to talk about

436
00:26:27.960 --> 00:26:30.119
their loved ones in past tense. Don't talk about them

437
00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:33.079
and their loved one in past tense. And that's one

438
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:35.319
that has been really difficult for me to really pay

439
00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:38.079
close attention to because Melissa and I only work with

440
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:43.119
unsolved cases. Most times ours are older cases, so it's

441
00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:45.480
easy for us to go to that past tense and

442
00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:48.200
talk in that past tense. So that's one that I

443
00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:50.200
try to really pay attention to as well.

444
00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:56.039
Yeah, I think that's really important, and I try to

445
00:26:56.039 --> 00:26:59.599
do that. I won't find myself slipping up, you know,

446
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:02.640
here or there, but I try to just pay attention

447
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:05.079
to what they say. You know, like if I'm working

448
00:27:05.079 --> 00:27:09.640
on a case where the loved one is missing but

449
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:13.759
the family believes that they're murdered, you know, I might

450
00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:18.960
include like yesterday was National Day for remembering murder victims.

451
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:22.039
And I included a couple people on there who are

452
00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:25.400
technically still missing, but their families know that they were

453
00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:30.319
murder victims, and so I feel like that's okay because

454
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:32.839
that's how the family feels. But if a family feels

455
00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:34.920
like that loved one is still out there alive, I

456
00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:39.160
would never do that, you know. So it's just paying

457
00:27:39.160 --> 00:27:43.279
attention to what families say, and also going back to

458
00:27:43.319 --> 00:27:47.440
what we talked about earlier with people first language. If

459
00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:50.960
you are working with someone and they do call themselves

460
00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:54.640
the schizophrenic or they call themselves a drug addict, you know,

461
00:27:54.920 --> 00:27:58.000
I think it's okay to use those words, but let

462
00:27:58.039 --> 00:28:01.319
people know like this is how they refer to themselves,

463
00:28:01.480 --> 00:28:04.200
or you could make a look. I know, Melissa, you

464
00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:08.200
talked about this. You put a disclaimer, you know, because

465
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:11.359
you Melissa and Whitney. If you haven't listened to a podcasts,

466
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:16.400
they include audio from interviews in there, and so they'll

467
00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:18.880
put a little disclaimer that's like, this is how I'm

468
00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:21.640
going to refer to the person because this is respectful,

469
00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:24.319
but you'll hear them refer to it this way or

470
00:28:24.359 --> 00:28:27.400
something like that. So I think just really paying attention

471
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:30.359
now people talk about themselves or their loved ones and

472
00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:35.119
then kind of go from there. Is okay, too, agreed?

473
00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:40.119
So are there any other negative words that we should

474
00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:49.079
all avoid or try to avoid using. I let's break

475
00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:53.319
out the list.

476
00:28:51.440 --> 00:28:57.759
Nerve of the list. I try to stay away from

477
00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:02.359
things from like sensational phrases that would be like brutal

478
00:29:02.519 --> 00:29:06.799
murder or horrific crime. I try to stay away from

479
00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:09.119
those and kind of use neutral terms by just saying

480
00:29:09.160 --> 00:29:14.079
like the homicide or the crime. And this just helps

481
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:17.519
maintain a focus on the facts of the case and

482
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:21.759
not sensationalizing them. Because isn't every murder pretty. It's brutal

483
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:24.039
and it's horrific, you know, So I don't think we

484
00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:27.839
need those little disclaimers on there. And also it just

485
00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:31.160
kind of feels gross, like in my mind. Whenever I'm

486
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:33.880
working on an episode, I try to think, if the

487
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:37.519
victims' parents were listening to this, what would they think?

488
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:41.720
What would they would that be upsetting to them? You know,

489
00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:45.240
would they like to hear those words being used to

490
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:49.319
describe their loved ones death. So I just try to

491
00:29:49.319 --> 00:29:54.359
stay away from that. That's just one example. I'll let

492
00:29:54.480 --> 00:30:00.720
other people provide them too. I was thinking about suicide.

493
00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:04.799
How we've worked to stop saying the person committed suicide

494
00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:08.079
and we'd rather say they died by suicide, because when

495
00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:10.160
you put commit in front of it, it's like we

496
00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:13.319
say you committed a crime, you committed an assault. It

497
00:30:13.400 --> 00:30:16.160
sounds as if what they did was criminal, and that

498
00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:18.640
can be pretty painful for people to hear and think

499
00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:20.440
about too. So that was one that I thought of.

500
00:30:20.839 --> 00:30:23.680
Something you said made me remember that one. It's being

501
00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:27.599
something that we've worked on too. And here's an example.

502
00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:30.359
I've not heard a lot.

503
00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:32.680
I have heard someone say death by suicide, but I've

504
00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:36.519
also heard saying completed suicide as opposed to committed.

505
00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:38.799
Those are two other things.

506
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:41.200
This is a prime example of when you don't know,

507
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:45.559
you google, because I wouldn't know which way to properly

508
00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:48.599
say that, so I would google that to be honest,

509
00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:52.680
to make sure that I am providing proper language.

510
00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:55.400
One that Hayley has said in the past, as she

511
00:30:55.440 --> 00:31:01.759
said at TCPF, was dumped dumping up body. It's very negative,

512
00:31:01.880 --> 00:31:06.440
it's very cold, it's very disturbing and sensationalized. You could

513
00:31:06.440 --> 00:31:11.960
say her body was left here or found here. You

514
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:15.279
do not have to say dumped or a dead end

515
00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:17.400
street or the case has come to a dead end.

516
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:24.160
It's too visual. It doesn't have to be that visual. Yeah,

517
00:31:24.359 --> 00:31:29.799
I really hate dumped or disposed. It just feels so

518
00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:32.839
grass than like the person didn't matter.

519
00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:36.000
And I know that they clearly didn't matter to the

520
00:31:36.039 --> 00:31:38.160
person I killed them, But they matter to the people,

521
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:41.599
their loved ones. And I wouldn't want my loved ones

522
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:44.440
to be talked about like that. They're not trash, could

523
00:31:44.440 --> 00:31:48.960
be you know, thrown out. So yeah, just those tiny

524
00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:52.920
little changes can really make a difference.

525
00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:59.079
Let's talk about the history of certain phrases and how

526
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:04.160
they could have racist or otherwise harmful beginnings. This was

527
00:32:04.279 --> 00:32:07.640
a hot topic at our Panol we did. Everyone was

528
00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:12.119
chiming in with various ones they had heard, So, yeah,

529
00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:13.759
what do you guys have, What do you know about

530
00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:14.400
any of these?

531
00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:18.279
Haley kind of already touched on this a little bit

532
00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:21.880
with the master bedroom versus primary bedroom. That's a pretty

533
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:25.240
tame one that we have heard from the audience and

534
00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:28.559
a pretty common one that people have discussed. Ones that

535
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:32.519
I learned when we discussed this. Grandfathered in is a

536
00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:37.359
new is one that I had not known before this year. Again,

537
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:43.720
the blacklist versus White List stakeholders Peanut Gallery. I feel

538
00:32:43.720 --> 00:32:46.920
like we had a list of fifteen twenty thirty just

539
00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:47.920
from the audience alone.

540
00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:48.599
How many.

541
00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:55.640
Seriouto much everything we say is rooted in racing. Yeah,

542
00:32:55.880 --> 00:32:58.119
I wish I could remember all the details, but I

543
00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:00.279
know the one that I learned, like basically the night

544
00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:06.519
before the panel was cakewalk. That cakewalk was some kind

545
00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:10.000
of performance that enslaved people would be asked to perform

546
00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:15.559
for their slavers. So, you know, we probably shouldn't use

547
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:17.559
that to be mean, like a phrase like something that's

548
00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:20.160
really easy it's going to be a total cakewalk is

549
00:33:20.240 --> 00:33:22.920
probably not something we should say anymore. We should think

550
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:25.799
about that one. But some of that stuff is just

551
00:33:25.839 --> 00:33:28.799
so baked into our history and our language it's really

552
00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:32.160
hard to let it go. But it's like we were saying,

553
00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:36.000
you know, just always educating yourself and thinking about where

554
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:40.559
some of this stuff comes from. Yeah. I even growing up,

555
00:33:40.599 --> 00:33:44.920
we had like school carnivals and we would do literal cakewalks.

556
00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:50.599
So I just, you know, I looked up a few

557
00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:55.920
because I wanted to add some that we hadn't talked

558
00:33:55.920 --> 00:34:01.720
about before. One that I found really interesting was roll

559
00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:06.720
up them. This phrase is sometimes linked to an old

560
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:12.000
myth that a man could legally like hit his wife

561
00:34:12.039 --> 00:34:17.800
with a stick no thicker than his them, and that's horrible,

562
00:34:18.039 --> 00:34:21.079
and it was I was reading about the history about

563
00:34:21.079 --> 00:34:23.480
it before that I hope I don't. But well, there

564
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:30.199
I go saying some of this proof that I'm not perfect.

565
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:34.599
I saw it tonight. I hope I don't mess this up.

566
00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:40.519
But basically it has been and it was a statement

567
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:44.719
that went like far far back, but in the seventies

568
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:49.519
or eighties, an article said that like this was a

569
00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:53.719
real law, that men could hit their wives with a

570
00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:56.119
stick that was no thicker than their thumb. And then

571
00:34:56.199 --> 00:35:00.280
for like decades, domestic violence advocates have had to like

572
00:35:00.519 --> 00:35:03.280
try and tell people that that's not a real law

573
00:35:04.599 --> 00:35:07.719
and it's just crazy. And then the other one that

574
00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:10.960
I don't know why I never thought about this before ever,

575
00:35:11.400 --> 00:35:14.199
And I feel like my dad said this all the

576
00:35:14.199 --> 00:35:17.159
time growing up, but was like long time, no cea

577
00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:23.239
and or no can do. And these phrases have origins

578
00:35:24.679 --> 00:35:28.159
and the way that indigenous and Chinese people's English was

579
00:35:28.280 --> 00:35:32.480
mocked in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. So they

580
00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:35.079
were used of a way to mimic in belittle non

581
00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:40.599
native Borish speakers, and once you learn on it makes sense. Right. Yeah,

582
00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:44.840
But I am so embarrassed because when I see someone,

583
00:35:44.920 --> 00:35:49.239
I would say like, long time, no sea. But now

584
00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:54.119
I am going to try and not see that anymore. Wow.

585
00:35:54.440 --> 00:35:58.000
Wow, Wow, that's a new one. I had not I

586
00:35:58.039 --> 00:36:00.199
did not know that wow either.

587
00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:06.199
Okay, okay, everyone take notes?

588
00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:13.800
Right, Oh now where were we? Let's see?

589
00:36:14.599 --> 00:36:17.199
So, are there any other phrases or anything like that

590
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:19.440
that you guys can think about or that you guys

591
00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:20.840
can think of that we.

592
00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:25.079
Should be talking about it? Kind of miss any We

593
00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:32.480
sometimes talk about trailer park not well, yes, that there's

594
00:36:32.519 --> 00:36:35.599
really no need to describe where someone lives as being

595
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:37.559
like a trailer park or that they live in a

596
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:40.079
mobile home because similar to like other those some of

597
00:36:40.119 --> 00:36:42.239
those words we talked about, like schizophrenica, it gives you

598
00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:45.519
a picture in your head about what this person's life

599
00:36:45.559 --> 00:36:48.360
is like. And maybe that's not that's not fair, that's

600
00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:50.960
burning them because we have so many stereotypes about about

601
00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:56.440
things like that, or the using the word ghetto. We

602
00:36:56.440 --> 00:36:58.199
we don't want to use that word, which just straight

603
00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:00.320
up say exactly where they did live and what part

604
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:04.280
of town. You know. I'm always a big proponent for

605
00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:08.000
just saying more, don't apply the label, just say what

606
00:37:08.039 --> 00:37:10.280
you're trying to say instead of the label. You know,

607
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:12.440
you don't have to call someone an alcoholic. You can

608
00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:18.280
say their families observed them hiding bottles of liquor around

609
00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:20.880
their house, or what, you know, the things that might

610
00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:23.639
cause someone to reach that conclusion without labeling someone. So

611
00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:26.559
I might say that they lived in you know, in

612
00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:29.760
you know, the southeast part of town, or in the

613
00:37:29.800 --> 00:37:32.559
older part of town. I might say that, but I

614
00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:36.159
wouldn't want to label their life by saying they lived

615
00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:37.599
in the ghetto. I would never say that.

616
00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:41.599
We use a lot of geographical description as well, like

617
00:37:41.639 --> 00:37:45.239
you said the south western corner of the town, or

618
00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:49.000
north of a major highway that runs through the town,

619
00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:51.360
just to kind of give a general idea, but also

620
00:37:51.480 --> 00:37:55.079
pulling in statistics from the area of Okay, these streets

621
00:37:55.599 --> 00:38:00.000
or this neighborhood experienced a ten percent higher level of cribery.

622
00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:03.039
That's a statistic. That's a fact. That's not labeling, and

623
00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:08.159
that's not stereotyping. It's easy to describe a neighborhood.

624
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:13.480
With those facts, yeah, rather than like labeling it in

625
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:15.320
a certain way that people think, oh, I think I

626
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:17.880
know what it looks like. Life looks like there, we

627
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:22.360
can actually tell them what life might look like there. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

628
00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:27.079
Some that I try not to use would be like

629
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:34.000
OCD or bipolar or you know, oh they're crazy, or

630
00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:37.840
oh they're psycho or oh there was I don't hear

631
00:38:37.880 --> 00:38:41.119
this one as much, but like schizo. But using these

632
00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:44.440
mental health terms to describe like everyday behavior is like cumbiadic,

633
00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:48.840
I'm so OCD about my desk. That really minimizes the

634
00:38:48.880 --> 00:38:52.960
experience of people who are actually diagnosed with you know,

635
00:38:53.079 --> 00:38:58.039
OCD or diagnosis schizophrenia or bipolar. You know, being like, oh,

636
00:38:58.079 --> 00:39:02.280
you're so bipolar when their mood shifts. You know, like

637
00:39:02.360 --> 00:39:05.800
that's just offensive to people who actually do live with

638
00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:09.800
those conditions. When again, you're applying those you know, assumptions

639
00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:14.159
that you have about bipolar people or people who are

640
00:39:14.440 --> 00:39:18.239
diagnosed with bipolar, you're you know, putting all of those

641
00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:25.440
things on them, and not every person who has you know,

642
00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:28.760
who has been diagnosed with bipolar has like major you

643
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:31.320
know mood swings like that, and it doesn't work the

644
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:34.239
way that people are trying to apply and things like that,

645
00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:38.320
So it's just better to use different words, like Sean

646
00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:41.480
was saying, like, just you just describe them the way

647
00:39:41.519 --> 00:39:45.760
that you would, don't use some sort of term, you know,

648
00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:49.360
to define them. Like you instead of saying, I'm so

649
00:39:49.480 --> 00:39:52.960
OCD about my desk, you could say like I'm detail

650
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:56.639
oriented or I'm particular because just because you like your

651
00:39:56.719 --> 00:40:00.320
desk to be organized, because I mean, you're OCD. And

652
00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:02.800
we don't want to be reinforcing those stereotypes that you're

653
00:40:02.840 --> 00:40:07.199
talking about by described by almost like diagnosing people with

654
00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:11.360
our words, by labeling them in those ways. Yeah, Zach,

655
00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:13.480
I think it also goes back to you saying, like,

656
00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:16.599
instead of calling somebody an alcoholic, you know, you can

657
00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:21.119
just describe the behaviors that they were having, because unless

658
00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:24.800
you're you know, a psychiatrist or a psychologist, like you

659
00:40:24.920 --> 00:40:29.639
probably should be saying those things unless you know, you're

660
00:40:29.719 --> 00:40:32.440
like this person was diagnosed and you read in an

661
00:40:32.519 --> 00:40:35.480
article and it's important to the story then included.

662
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:41.119
But yeah, just like you said, prostitute versus sex worker,

663
00:40:41.559 --> 00:40:44.760
you know, there's also you know, illegal immigrants. That's an

664
00:40:45.079 --> 00:40:48.559
undocumented migrant. There's there's different ways to say things. I

665
00:40:48.639 --> 00:40:53.760
also think it's important to think about how the verb,

666
00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:57.000
the worded wordage has changed. For instance, we no longer

667
00:40:57.079 --> 00:41:01.679
use child pornography because pornography is a word that is

668
00:41:01.719 --> 00:41:05.639
now the connotation behind pornography is that it was willingly given.

669
00:41:06.079 --> 00:41:09.360
In most cases, children can't do that, so now that's

670
00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:14.199
called child sex abuse material. Hopefully this doesn't affect your website, Haley,

671
00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:16.079
I didn't think about that before I started talking about

672
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:20.719
this topic. Hopefully they won't bring you on that.

673
00:41:19.159 --> 00:41:24.760
No, it's important one to bring up. I feel like

674
00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:30.199
that is a new one that people are trying to

675
00:41:30.199 --> 00:41:32.719
to change, and I think it is really important because,

676
00:41:32.760 --> 00:41:37.159
like you said, they're not giving consent, they are being abused,

677
00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:43.360
and that needs to be brought up. Precisely. The same

678
00:41:43.400 --> 00:41:45.880
goes for victim versus survivor.

679
00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:49.280
Sean, this is one that you talked about a domestic

680
00:41:49.400 --> 00:41:53.519
violence victim as opposed to a survivor of domestic violence.

681
00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:56.480
Those are two very could be the same thing, but

682
00:41:56.480 --> 00:41:59.760
two very different ways to say it. One's more powerful

683
00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:06.719
or more empowering, more positive, and one is very stereotypical,

684
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:11.880
very label based, but we didn't We don't really have

685
00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:14.440
time to go into like victim blaming, but just being

686
00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:17.000
a victim is something that also comes with a lot

687
00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:19.119
of judgment for a lot of people.

688
00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:23.119
So yeah, in all instances, it's great to be able

689
00:42:23.119 --> 00:42:28.519
to avoid using that word to label someone. Yeah, we

690
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:32.920
did them last year. Our first weaponar for True Crime

691
00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:36.559
podcast training was with on domestic violence and it was

692
00:42:36.599 --> 00:42:39.079
through the y w c A and they talked about

693
00:42:39.119 --> 00:42:42.760
how there's been a shift towards saying victim, survivors or

694
00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:47.559
just survivors, but also they said to listen to what

695
00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:50.480
people refer to themselves as that you could use that.

696
00:42:51.079 --> 00:42:54.639
But I think you were telling of Sean that there's

697
00:42:54.760 --> 00:42:58.320
also some people don't even like to say domestic violence.

698
00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:03.440
Some people like to say is interpersonal Yeah, yeah, interpersonal

699
00:43:03.559 --> 00:43:08.039
violence or relationship violence or dating violence to be more specific,

700
00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:11.559
because I think the word domestic, I mean, in the

701
00:43:11.639 --> 00:43:14.480
laws where I live, it kind of encompasses any violence

702
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:17.199
that happens between any family members, so that could be

703
00:43:18.159 --> 00:43:22.000
child parent or you know, adult parent, older adult, like

704
00:43:22.119 --> 00:43:24.480
just anything that could happen within a family unit or

705
00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:27.159
how And I think most of the time when I

706
00:43:27.159 --> 00:43:29.920
say domestic violence, I'm thinking about two people in like

707
00:43:29.960 --> 00:43:33.800
a romantic relationship, and so it for some people, it

708
00:43:33.880 --> 00:43:36.760
really muddies the waters. And it's probably better to say

709
00:43:37.880 --> 00:43:41.719
interpersonal violence or dating violence if they're not married and

710
00:43:41.719 --> 00:43:45.559
they're just dating. So it's it's again. I think it's

711
00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:52.000
just thinking about what the effect is of what you're saying. Right,

712
00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:54.719
So it's kind of like if I think the audience

713
00:43:54.760 --> 00:43:57.639
I'm talking to might be confused by me using that phrase,

714
00:43:57.679 --> 00:44:01.199
and maybe I won't use that phrase. But I think

715
00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:04.400
I almost feel like we might have missed our window

716
00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:06.400
in changing the name, even though there are plenty of

717
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:13.119
agencies that we'll still say IPv instead of DV. Yeah,

718
00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:16.320
so do you think it's okay to still use DV

719
00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:18.760
or do you think we should be making this with

720
00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:22.559
I think it's okay to still to still use it.

721
00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:24.079
I think most of us know what it means, and

722
00:44:24.119 --> 00:44:26.639
I don't think there's any negative connotation that comes to it.

723
00:44:26.639 --> 00:44:29.559
It just might be too big of an umbrella term.

724
00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:32.119
But we usually if we're talking about child abuse or

725
00:44:32.119 --> 00:44:36.039
elder abuse, we usually use those phrases, you know, child abuse, neglect,

726
00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:38.079
or we say elder abuse or elder neglects. So I

727
00:44:38.119 --> 00:44:42.199
think we all we commonly draw those distinctions, and I

728
00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:44.440
might call it domestic violence, even if they don't live

729
00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:48.960
under the same roof. They're just dating. But when you're taught,

730
00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:52.320
when you're describing, again, describing rather than labeling what the

731
00:44:52.360 --> 00:44:55.880
situation is with the people, then you can make sure

732
00:44:55.880 --> 00:44:57.519
you're clear and what you're saying. But I don't I

733
00:44:58.239 --> 00:45:01.559
don't see calling something domestic. Maybe it's less precise, but

734
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:05.639
it's not as insulting to anyone. I think to call

735
00:45:05.679 --> 00:45:09.039
it that might be jarring for some people. They might

736
00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:12.840
not want to accept that that's what we would label

737
00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:15.079
what they've gone through. So again, if you're in that situation,

738
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:17.960
it's always to follow that person's lead with what they

739
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:20.159
want to talk about with their situation, how they describe

740
00:45:20.199 --> 00:45:24.440
themselves and what they went through. Yeah, again, just goes

741
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:27.079
back to just paying attention to how people talk about

742
00:45:27.079 --> 00:45:31.039
themselves and you know, kind of taking that into mind.

743
00:45:33.039 --> 00:45:38.440
All right, for my last major question, let's talk about

744
00:45:38.440 --> 00:45:43.000
how to keep up with the ever evolving language changes.

745
00:45:43.079 --> 00:45:45.880
Because this is a lot of information and given a

746
00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:49.760
year or two from now, this couldn't be completely wrong.

747
00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:53.480
So there are lots of changes are being made. Hayley,

748
00:45:53.559 --> 00:45:57.079
I know you address this in your training program, So

749
00:45:57.119 --> 00:45:59.559
can you start us off what can we do to

750
00:45:59.639 --> 00:46:00.440
keep up with it?

751
00:46:02.119 --> 00:46:05.239
Yeah? So one, there's a lot of different ways you

752
00:46:05.239 --> 00:46:09.320
can keep this. One thing that I suggest is looking

753
00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:14.079
up style guides that's focused on specific topics. For example,

754
00:46:14.199 --> 00:46:16.960
in a chat, if you're paying attention, Jemma said that

755
00:46:17.079 --> 00:46:21.079
she recently read the Glad Guide and that talks about

756
00:46:21.639 --> 00:46:26.800
LGBTQ plus, you know, uh, guides on how to use

757
00:46:26.840 --> 00:46:30.599
that language when you're talking about people in that community.

758
00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:35.840
So basically, if you're focusing on a very specific topic

759
00:46:36.239 --> 00:46:38.320
and you don't know the right language to use, you

760
00:46:38.360 --> 00:46:41.800
could go view a guide and you can usually just

761
00:46:41.840 --> 00:46:45.440
google those, you know, like it's Google is your friend.

762
00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:47.400
You don't have to get it right every you know,

763
00:46:47.840 --> 00:46:53.719
you could just say something like LGBTQ plus style guide

764
00:46:53.800 --> 00:46:58.039
or you know, media guide or something like that. Now,

765
00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:00.360
if you only have one or two things that you're

766
00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:03.119
unsure about, you could just do a quick Google search.

767
00:47:03.360 --> 00:47:06.599
Like you could say, what's the proper term or in

768
00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:10.880
certain word or phrase today, For example, we don't say

769
00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:17.559
like mentally handicapped anymore, that's not correct. We would say

770
00:47:17.639 --> 00:47:21.440
like intellectually disabled. So if I didn't know what that was,

771
00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:23.840
I would look up, like, what's the proper term for

772
00:47:24.280 --> 00:47:29.280
mentally handicapped? Today? You know, it's okay to put those

773
00:47:29.280 --> 00:47:32.000
things in there and just ask because how elseo you

774
00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:36.840
got to learn? And you'll usually find some answers there.

775
00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:39.880
But if you're working on a project that has just

776
00:47:39.960 --> 00:47:42.280
a bunch of different things that you need to consider,

777
00:47:42.639 --> 00:47:44.480
and the style guide is aren't working for you, and

778
00:47:44.559 --> 00:47:47.360
you're really nervous about not getting it right, you can

779
00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:51.440
always hire a content advisor and they can help you

780
00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:56.239
make sure that your language is accurate and respectful. But

781
00:47:56.519 --> 00:48:00.079
in the end, it's all about just learning to a

782
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:05.280
apt and being willing to make changes. Yeah, so Google,

783
00:48:05.559 --> 00:48:08.159
I think in the end the moral of this whole

784
00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:13.880
video that Google is your friend, also your peers. Ask

785
00:48:13.960 --> 00:48:14.519
your peers.

786
00:48:14.880 --> 00:48:17.320
I know we Melissa and are part of probably I

787
00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:20.320
don't know fifteen different group messages where we have put

788
00:48:20.360 --> 00:48:22.639
in there. Hey, we're working on a case. This is

789
00:48:22.719 --> 00:48:27.360
the scenario. How would y'all phrase it? Is this correct?

790
00:48:27.559 --> 00:48:30.760
Am I doing anything wrong? Because we have a wide

791
00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:34.039
variety of peers that have been in this industry a

792
00:48:34.039 --> 00:48:38.239
lot longer than us, who may have different careers, Like

793
00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:43.239
Sean is well versed in the interpersonal violence now, and

794
00:48:44.199 --> 00:48:48.039
I have lots of questions about that because I don't know.

795
00:48:48.760 --> 00:48:51.760
That's not my skill set. So just being willing to

796
00:48:51.960 --> 00:48:54.800
ask the questions also is important.

797
00:48:56.280 --> 00:49:02.079
Yeah, absolutely, And I am in my little bucket, but

798
00:49:02.239 --> 00:49:04.679
I am lucky to have peers that have been doing

799
00:49:04.679 --> 00:49:06.760
this for much longer and have a lot of experience.

800
00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:09.000
So it's always great to just reach out to someone

801
00:49:09.039 --> 00:49:12.639
and just say, am I am I on the right

802
00:49:12.679 --> 00:49:17.119
track here? Or I completely agree.

803
00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:22.400
I've even messaged Hayley questions about my kids' homework when

804
00:49:22.440 --> 00:49:24.639
I'm not quite sure what they should be writing in

805
00:49:24.679 --> 00:49:34.519
an essay, so it help. Yeah, all right, awesome, Okay,

806
00:49:34.639 --> 00:49:37.440
so let's go ahead and hold the Q and A.

807
00:49:37.960 --> 00:49:43.079
So please leave your questions about really anything appropriate in

808
00:49:43.159 --> 00:49:48.880
the chat while you're typing those out with me. Is

809
00:49:48.920 --> 00:49:53.679
going to share an amazing handout that she made.

810
00:49:53.840 --> 00:49:59.840
If you're at TCPS, surprise, it's the same fund is similar.

811
00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:07.960
Why so this is kind of all the topics we

812
00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:10.360
kind of discussed just a little bit of this and

813
00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:13.800
that to kind of give just a little bit of

814
00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:19.079
example to show kind of what we're talking about. I

815
00:50:19.159 --> 00:50:22.599
love it, And you're gonna share a link right with everyone? Yes, yes,

816
00:50:22.679 --> 00:50:25.679
so you can see it here. The link is here.

817
00:50:28.360 --> 00:50:33.920
No questions. Sometimes we don't have questions, and that's okay.

818
00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:37.039
But if you have questions, definitely put them in the

819
00:50:37.159 --> 00:50:40.159
chat let us know, or if you're too shy, you

820
00:50:40.199 --> 00:50:47.199
can always reach out after. Yeah, I'm just looking through

821
00:50:47.239 --> 00:50:50.440
the comments here. Some things that people have said that

822
00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:52.239
we should avoid, saying.

823
00:50:53.000 --> 00:50:59.960
White trash definitely, and wrong side of the tracks absolutely,

824
00:51:03.119 --> 00:51:04.000
smoking gun.

825
00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:12.320
Yeah, so there's a lot in there. It's just again

826
00:51:12.519 --> 00:51:15.480
just making those tiny changes as you go, as you

827
00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:19.440
learn is super important. Here is a question.

828
00:51:20.239 --> 00:51:22.719
Is there ever a time that being vague in our

829
00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:26.360
descriptions disrespectful to a victim's memory or family?

830
00:51:29.559 --> 00:51:34.199
I I don't think so, as long as you're just

831
00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:40.599
trying to be respectful. Sometimes you may want to not

832
00:51:40.760 --> 00:51:44.159
bring up certain things about a victim because you don't

833
00:51:44.159 --> 00:51:48.199
want people to judge them. For example, if I was

834
00:51:48.280 --> 00:51:53.639
working on a case where the victim was a sex worker,

835
00:51:53.719 --> 00:51:57.239
but they weren't killed, they didn't have their murder, didn't

836
00:51:57.280 --> 00:51:59.719
have anything to do with them being a sex worker.

837
00:52:00.519 --> 00:52:03.199
I probably wouldn't bring that up, not because I think

838
00:52:03.239 --> 00:52:06.480
there's anything wrong with being a sex worker. I'm absolutely

839
00:52:06.559 --> 00:52:08.920
okay with that. And if I was listening, I wouldn't

840
00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:12.079
judge the victim, but there are people out there who would,

841
00:52:12.159 --> 00:52:15.039
so I would just try to I'd be vague about that,

842
00:52:16.039 --> 00:52:19.679
just because I'm trying to protect anyone thinking badly about

843
00:52:19.719 --> 00:52:24.079
the victim, because again, my whole thought process behind the

844
00:52:24.119 --> 00:52:26.320
podcast is that I want people to care about the

845
00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:32.280
victim when they leave, and unfortunately not everyone is, you know,

846
00:52:32.360 --> 00:52:36.000
not everyone is going to not think badly about the victim.

847
00:52:36.920 --> 00:52:40.119
So I think it's okay, what do you guys think

848
00:52:40.159 --> 00:52:40.519
about that?

849
00:52:41.079 --> 00:52:43.639
So I think if it's if it's not pertinent to

850
00:52:43.679 --> 00:52:45.639
the case, just like you were saying, if it's not

851
00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:48.920
vital information that has to do with what happened to

852
00:52:48.960 --> 00:52:53.320
this person, it's definitely best to leave it out. There's

853
00:52:54.159 --> 00:52:56.920
no need to say anything that you're right might get

854
00:52:56.920 --> 00:53:00.599
people judges, because you would be surprised that listen to

855
00:53:00.599 --> 00:53:03.599
EEP in these true crime podcasts that will judge the

856
00:53:03.679 --> 00:53:07.719
victim probably just as harshly as they do the perpetrator.

857
00:53:08.599 --> 00:53:12.679
And so anytime that we can shine a spotlight on

858
00:53:12.800 --> 00:53:16.039
everything good that that person did, it's I think it's

859
00:53:16.119 --> 00:53:20.199
much better. We also always let our families listen to

860
00:53:20.239 --> 00:53:22.920
the episodes before they go live, so if they didn't

861
00:53:23.079 --> 00:53:26.800
like any aspect of it, we could definitely change it

862
00:53:27.079 --> 00:53:29.639
prior to it going live, which kind of helps, but

863
00:53:29.719 --> 00:53:33.400
it's also very it's still nerve wracking when the family listens.

864
00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:37.639
Wow. I think the only risk might be in a

865
00:53:38.440 --> 00:53:43.519
missing person's or unsolved where if you think you yourself

866
00:53:43.639 --> 00:53:46.119
make a judgment call that you think a certain detail

867
00:53:46.159 --> 00:53:49.719
about a person's life is not relevant, then maybe leaving

868
00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:53.400
that detail out could actually be relevant to how they disappear,

869
00:53:53.400 --> 00:53:54.840
because you're like, oh, I don't want to describe them

870
00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:57.599
as being part of the unhoused community, because I really don't.

871
00:53:57.679 --> 00:53:59.679
I really think people might judge them for that. But

872
00:53:59.719 --> 00:54:02.480
that might actually be a lead for someone, or lead

873
00:54:02.519 --> 00:54:04.719
someone to remember that they saw them or encounter them

874
00:54:04.719 --> 00:54:06.480
at some point. So I guess that would only be

875
00:54:06.559 --> 00:54:08.559
like the risk. I don't think it would be disrespectful

876
00:54:08.599 --> 00:54:11.519
to the family. But if your goal would be to

877
00:54:11.599 --> 00:54:14.199
generate leads about something, there might be certain facts that

878
00:54:14.239 --> 00:54:16.639
you have to kind of include even if you're a

879
00:54:16.679 --> 00:54:19.800
little nervous about doing that or you're concerned. I always

880
00:54:19.840 --> 00:54:23.599
think that's the tricky one. Yeah, I think with unsolved

881
00:54:23.639 --> 00:54:27.320
you should include as much as you find, just because

882
00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:33.239
you never know what might, you know, cause someone to

883
00:54:33.239 --> 00:54:38.719
remember something important. So if it was an unresolved case,

884
00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:41.639
then I definitely would include all of that. But then again,

885
00:54:41.800 --> 00:54:45.559
using that person first language and trauma and form language like,

886
00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:50.039
you can't always not include that information. Sometimes you do

887
00:54:50.119 --> 00:54:51.760
have to bring it up, but then you do it

888
00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:55.239
respectfully and you don't focus on it, and you just

889
00:54:56.039 --> 00:54:59.760
continue on. Because if the victim was a sex worker,

890
00:55:00.119 --> 00:55:03.440
that was just their profession. They had everything else about

891
00:55:03.440 --> 00:55:05.320
them that you can still talk about. You don't need

892
00:55:05.360 --> 00:55:09.800
to focus on that part percisely.

893
00:55:10.679 --> 00:55:14.880
So yeah, all right, I'll give my hosting duties a

894
00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:18.320
back over to Haley all the right.

895
00:55:19.119 --> 00:55:26.000
Thank you so much for hosting Malasa, and thank you

896
00:55:26.320 --> 00:55:30.159
to Sean and Whitney for being here with me tonight.

897
00:55:31.400 --> 00:55:34.199
Is there anything else that you all I would like

898
00:55:34.239 --> 00:55:41.199
to talk about before we leave, I'll just mention that

899
00:55:41.239 --> 00:55:45.159
October is Domestic Violence Awareness month. Speaking of domestic violence,

900
00:55:45.199 --> 00:55:48.840
and I know that Haley and Whitney and Lista can

901
00:55:48.840 --> 00:55:51.039
talk a little bit about the projects they're doing, but

902
00:55:51.239 --> 00:55:55.039
our podcast will be doing a whole month of special episodes,

903
00:55:55.719 --> 00:55:59.280
having some feed drops from our partner nonprofit or not

904
00:55:59.280 --> 00:56:04.199
nonprofits my gosh partner podcasts to talk about different cases.

905
00:56:04.280 --> 00:56:06.920
So we're I think we're going to be doing ten

906
00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:10.360
episodes next month, so it's going to be really exciting.

907
00:56:10.400 --> 00:56:13.239
So I just want to, you know, kind of share

908
00:56:13.280 --> 00:56:15.559
that that if you're interested in these kinds of cases,

909
00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:18.199
like I hope you'll follow us and get to hear

910
00:56:18.199 --> 00:56:20.239
some of these really moving stories and learn more about

911
00:56:20.239 --> 00:56:25.000
domestic violence during this month. And it's since in Survivors

912
00:56:26.639 --> 00:56:30.360
and you're on every podcast every place. You can find

913
00:56:30.440 --> 00:56:33.159
us everywhere in all our social media since and Survivors

914
00:56:33.360 --> 00:56:39.320
at Sins and Survivors. Yeah, and thanks for having me, Haley, Yeah,

915
00:56:39.559 --> 00:56:42.199
thank you. This is all your idea and I appreciate

916
00:56:42.239 --> 00:56:46.880
it so much. Whitney and Melissa, what do you have

917
00:56:47.000 --> 00:56:50.280
going on? Not much for not planning a festival or

918
00:56:50.400 --> 00:56:54.639
not a vessel conference conference.

919
00:56:56.440 --> 00:57:01.559
Yeah, so we are in the keep saying the preliminary stages,

920
00:57:01.599 --> 00:57:03.480
but we're well past the preliminary stages.

921
00:57:03.559 --> 00:57:05.320
We've been working on this for over a year. At

922
00:57:05.320 --> 00:57:06.880
this point, we are.

923
00:57:06.800 --> 00:57:10.519
Planning Advocacy con which is a conference like no other.

924
00:57:11.000 --> 00:57:14.400
It's not your typical crime conference. We are putting family

925
00:57:14.400 --> 00:57:19.840
members in the same room as nonprofits resources, PIS ethical

926
00:57:19.880 --> 00:57:23.760
content creators, other family members to know that they're not

927
00:57:23.800 --> 00:57:27.119
going through this alone and giving them all the tools

928
00:57:27.119 --> 00:57:29.480
that we can possibly think of for them to help

929
00:57:29.559 --> 00:57:34.280
advance their loved one stories. It's us along with Eric

930
00:57:34.400 --> 00:57:37.679
Carter Londin and it'll be in March twenty eight, March

931
00:57:37.719 --> 00:57:44.920
twenty eight through thirtieth of next year in Indianapolis.

932
00:57:45.480 --> 00:57:53.840
Yes, I'm really looking forward to it all right. Well,

933
00:57:54.800 --> 00:57:58.039
Melissa Whitney and I have been working on a project

934
00:57:58.079 --> 00:58:02.000
for Domestic Violence Awareness Month. You'll be able to see

935
00:58:02.039 --> 00:58:06.480
more about that on our social medias on October first,

936
00:58:06.519 --> 00:58:11.440
But basically, we are going to be hosting a drive

937
00:58:11.719 --> 00:58:15.800
where we are going to be donating essential items to

938
00:58:19.199 --> 00:58:23.159
domestic violent shelters around the country. So we're just encouraging

939
00:58:23.199 --> 00:58:27.079
everyone to get involved and donate bags in their own areas,

940
00:58:28.079 --> 00:58:30.559
and we have everything already figured out for you, what

941
00:58:30.679 --> 00:58:34.800
goes in the bag, where to buy it, all those things,

942
00:58:35.400 --> 00:58:37.960
so you'll be able to find more information about that

943
00:58:38.400 --> 00:58:42.039
on October first on our social media's and we're really

944
00:58:42.440 --> 00:58:44.599
looking forward to that and hoping to get as many

945
00:58:44.639 --> 00:58:50.800
people involved as possible. And we worked really hard on that.

946
00:58:50.920 --> 00:58:53.079
And one thing I never even thought about to put

947
00:58:53.079 --> 00:58:57.239
in the bags, which I think Whitney came up with,

948
00:58:57.320 --> 00:59:03.559
either Whitney or Melissa, but chargers. So a lot of

949
00:59:03.559 --> 00:59:08.559
the time domestic violence survivors or victims. I'm victim survivors.

950
00:59:09.159 --> 00:59:14.320
They leave their homes with nothing, literally nothing, and so

951
00:59:15.039 --> 00:59:20.039
these bags provide essentials to them, you know, body wash, shampoo, conditioner,

952
00:59:20.159 --> 00:59:26.360
a brush, socks. So we're really excited about this project

953
00:59:26.400 --> 00:59:31.760
and I can't wait for people to get involved. I

954
00:59:31.840 --> 00:59:35.320
just want to thank everyone again, Sean Whitney, Melissa and

955
00:59:35.400 --> 00:59:38.760
our audience. Thank you so much for being here. And

956
00:59:38.800 --> 00:59:41.000
you can stay up to date on our next webinar

957
00:59:41.119 --> 00:59:45.320
by following True Crime Podcast Training on social media. But

958
00:59:45.559 --> 00:59:50.679
until Ben, I'll see you later. Thank you, I thank you.

959
00:59:59.119 --> 01:00:03.320
Thanks for listening. Visit sinspod dot co slash subscribe for

960
01:00:03.400 --> 01:00:07.599
exclusive bonus content and to listen ad free. Remember to

961
01:00:07.800 --> 01:00:11.480
like and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and threads

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01:00:11.559 --> 01:00:15.159
at sins and Survivors. If you're enjoying the podcast, please

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01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:18.039
leave us a review on your podcast platform of choice.

964
01:00:18.159 --> 01:00:22.280
You can contact us at questions at sins andsurvivors dot com.

965
01:00:22.440 --> 01:00:24.719
If you are someone you know as affected by domestic

966
01:00:24.800 --> 01:00:28.079
violence or needs support, please reach out to local resources

967
01:00:28.159 --> 01:00:31.079
or the National Domestic Violence Hotline. A list of resources

968
01:00:31.119 --> 01:00:34.280
is available on our website, Sins and Survivors dot com.

969
01:00:34.719 --> 01:00:38.159
Sins and Survivors, a Las Vegas true crime podcast, is research,

970
01:00:38.199 --> 01:00:41.159
written and produced by your hosts Sean and John. The

971
01:00:41.239 --> 01:00:43.679
information shared in this podcast is accurate at the time

972
01:00:43.679 --> 01:00:47.079
of recording. If you have questions, concerns, or corrections, please

973
01:00:47.119 --> 01:00:49.880
email us. Links to source material for this episode can

974
01:00:49.920 --> 01:00:53.880
be found on our website, Sinsensurvivors dot com.

975
01:00:54.079 --> 01:00:57.079
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely

976
01:00:57.159 --> 01:01:01.400
those of the podcast creators, hosts, and their guests. All

977
01:01:01.480 --> 01:01:05.440
individuals are innocent until proven guilty. This content does not

978
01:01:05.559 --> 01:01:09.599
constitute legal advice. Listeners are encouraged to consult with legal

979
01:01:09.639 --> 01:01:10.760
professionals for guidance.