Empowering Language Special Presentation

0:00 To listen ad free, visit sinspod dot com slash subscribe starting at two ninety nine a month. You'll also get access to our exclusive bonus content episodes when you joined through Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Thanks for supporting the show. Hello everyone. We hope that all of you are having a warm and enjoyable holiday season celebrating with family and friends or not if that's your jam. Next week, we will be bringing you our annual holiday episode, Missing at the Holidays, and sharing with you some of the updates and stories of missing people from around the country in the hopes that someone knows something and comes forward with new information. For our subscribers, this week, we will be covering the story of Emma Cusack, a teen girl who was arrested for murdering a thirty six year old man in a hotel room at the Luxor last year, and the details of the crime and her arrests left us with many questions, including the fact that the media said that the two of them were on a date. If you're interested in hearing that, head over to sinspod dot co slash subscribe and you can join our Patreon or you can join Apple Podcast subscriptions. We just sent out our special holiday cards to thank our subscribers, and we really appreciate all of your support. Back in October, I was a guest for the monthly True Crime Podcast Training webinar with Melissa and Whitney from Navigating Advocacy and hosted by Hailey Gray, the founder of the True Crime podcast training course.

1:24 The topic was empowering language, which you've heard Sean and I mentioned a few times on the podcast. We won't spoil it here, but it was really fun and interesting and you'll definitely learn something, so let us know what you think. You can always email us at podcast at Sinsansurvivors dot com. All Right, hello everyone, and thank you so much for being here at this month's True Crime podcast training webinar. Tonight. You were talking about empowering language and how thoughtful language choices shape respectful storytelling. I'm Hailey Pray, a researcher and for multiple podcasts and the co founder of True Current podcast Trainey. I'm honored to have Sean from Sins and Survivors podcast here with me along with Melissa and Whitney from Navigating Advocacy. Sean, would you mind starting us off and introduce yourself. No, hey, everyone, thanks for being here tonight.

2:21 I'm Sean Malika. Like Hayley said, I'm one half of the hosts behind Sins and Survivors, which is a true crime podcast focused on Las Vegas and domestic violence. And I'm a law school graduate and I've worked in victim services probably for about twenty years now, and I'm a tc PT graduate. So thanks Haley, and I'm glad to be here. Thank you so much for being here. Melissa, you've been part of our webinars before, but for anyone who haven't been here, would you mind introducing yourself? Sure. I'm Melissa Linwber, one half of the podcast Navigating Advocacy, also co founder of Advocacy Con, a conference that brings together experts, nonprofits, anything with victim's families to kind of help them navigate this world that they have been thrown into together. I have two teenage boys. I live in Florida.

3:22 There's a hurricane here right now, so that's about me. Oh my gosh. Well, if everything goes dark, we know it was the hurricane that came. Yes, it should be good. I think it's mainly a spy now, so okay, good. And then Whitney, you are always here with me. Usually you're behind the screen, but tonight you're in front of it. Can you please introduce yourself or anyone who may not know who you are? Sure? I am the other half of Navigating Advocacy. I am also a co founder of Advocacy CON. I also have two boys, and I am a play a very small role in the TCPT team occasionally when they need me.

4:12 It's more than occasionally. She's literally tech as you see our text, like can you look over this? Please let me know if it looks okay wow. But just to give some background before I'm actually going to hand things over to Melissa to host everything tonight, I just wanted to give some background and say that Sean, this was her idea, this whole webinar. She came to Whitney and I month ago with an idea about how to use respectful language, and she wanted to talk about her expertise and domestic violence, which and just in victim services which come.

4:56 You know, she has so much experience that we're very lucky to have her here. And then also Whitney and Melissa are huge advocates. They are actually the people that inspired me to be more hands on with families, and so my career would not be where it is without them inspiring me. And just also so lucky to learn from Sean and all of her experience, and she's been so helpful this last just over a year since we met. So yeah, I'm so thankful for all three of you being here with me tonight, helping everyone here learn. And yes, Jima just brought this up. So we actually did this pianel in Denver at True Crime Podcast Festival. We've kind of revamped it a little bit for this one, but you know, we're really excited to talk to everyone about language choices and how important making me. So with that, I'm going to turn everything over to Melissa and she's going to host tonight. That way I can participate in the conversation. So thank you, Melissa.

6:04 Perfect Now, thank you so for those of you that are listening, We welcome you to share any of your ideas, your experiences in the chat as we go. All of us will really be monitoring that, so just throw them out there as you see fit. Please feel free to ask any questions related to what we're talking. About in the chat. However, if you have any questions that aren't exactly related to whatever we're talking about, we will have a Q and A at the end for you to ask those general types of questions. So let's start off by talking about what people first language is, Hayley, What is this type of language and why is it so important?

6:53 Yeah, so, people first language, it's all about putting the individual before their circumstances. So it's a way of reminding ourselves that people aren't defined by what's happened to them or any of the challenges they face. For example, instead of saying a drug addict, we could say a person with a substance abuse disorder. Or rather than saying a schizophrenic, we'd say a person with schizophrenia. And this may seem like a small change, but it's actually a really important part of storytelling. It helps us honor the dignity of victims and their families by keeping the focus on their humanity and again, not by what's happened to them or a diagnosis they may have, or a challenge they face anything like that. Again, it just helps us focus on the person and who they are.

7:43 And when we're using people first language, we're acknowledging that they're more than their experiences. They're real people with real lives, loved ones and stories that deserve respect, to empathy and all of this is a simple ship that can make a big difference and how we approach and understand True Crimes series. Yeah. I really love that, Haley. It's just so important. These labels that we use on people, they're just so weighted. And if we can avoid labeling someone as you know, a diabetic or it's schizophrenic and put their person self first, I think it just helps everyone build on that empathy to connect with these people and the stories we're trying to tell. Yeah, I agree.

8:30 I think this is something that I learned in the four years that we've been a podcast. It was part of that evolution of when you tell a story, you are taking on responsibility for that story and for that subject matter and treating these people with respect and showing that they are human and putting them first before whatever their story, whatever negative things in their story or even positive things. Put the person first. It makes a world of difference in the storytelling, right. I think when you say like a schitzoph like that person's a schizophrenic, like that's what people are going to immediately focus on and not the fact that they're actually a person and their person comes before their diagnosis or challenges or things like that. So it is definitely something that I think I still catch myself in, you know, But it's just I think what we want everyone to take away from this is just to be mindful of what you're saying. Like, you're not going to be perfect. None of us are perfect. I think we all say at least one thing that we're like, oh, I really have to work on that, you know. So, but it's just about being mindful and just remembering that we're trying to put the person first. And I had some other examples here that I wanted to bring up, and so there are other words that can kind of have, you know, like a negative connotation again with like when we say a drug addict that you usually has, you know,

10:01 a stigma to it. But you know other things that we could change when we're talking about respect, the language instead of ex convict or you know something like that, or an ex stell and you could say a person with a history of incarceration or formerly incarcerated person, and that just puts it on like they are a person, that's their past. You know, we can separate the two and you know, instead of This is a big one that I think a lot of people in the true crimefield have made changes. But we don't really say prostitute anymore because that again has negative connotations to it. So you could say a person involved in sex work or a person who has engaged in sex work. It gets a little tricky. I don't know if any of you have dealt with this before, but if you're working on a case where somebody is charged with prostitution, that's literally would like crime, and so it can be a little hard to know how to word that. But again, just trying to remind people that it's you know, a person and then whatever is going on. Yeah, so yeah, sorry, Haley.

11:20 One that popped up for us quite a bit. And this is something that I've noticed in the Austin community where I live. We have a ton of unhoused population here in Austin. And when we first worked with Vlad's family, Vlad at Kassele's family, he was a big part in the unhoused community. He volunteered there, he worked there, he was unhoused for a time being and could potentially still be a member of the unhoused population. And I think that that was a big one for me because I've heard homeless so much my whole life. Transitioning to member of the unhoused or member of the unsheltered community was really it was one of the light bulb moments for me.

12:03 Yeah, some of those words are so they feel so heavy with like the weight of stigma or just assumptions, and it's we've worked on this, like our whole life, right, we're all kind of part of the same generation. We've seen our language and what's acceptable evolve over time, and I think it's great for all of us to continue to be in that evolution. Like you said, none of us are perfect in this, but we're always taking in new information and trying to, you know, do better and be better. And I think that's a great example of that Whitney just how you know, if we label someone as homeless, it gives people pictures in their mind of what that looks like, what kind of person they are. So if we can flip it around and describe it as someone who's experiencing being unhoused, it just kind of pulls that stigma off of them, and then you can really see somebody like Vlad come through and not be weighed down by stereotypes. Right, that's so true, because you know, somebody experiencing homelessness like that looks comple That could be completely different for a lot of people. Like I don't know if anyone else fails the way, but I love Reddit because you can see so many people's experiences, and I've seen things where people are like, I'm part of the homeless community and I live out of my car, Like I have a nine to five forty hour drop week, but I can't afford to have like to have, you know, a home, and so I live out of my car.

13:30 And so it really is a spectrum of things, and we don't want to, you know, just like put people in a box and again make those assumptions of how somebody is living. So I really like having these conversations with people because I always learned something new. Like Whitney said, before we did the project with Latis family last year, I probably didn't say unsheltered community or experiencing homelessness because it just was ran something that I thought about. But then after I was you know, putting we were putting together the materials and I was talking to people. I was like, no, I really need to make this change because it's important. So I think these are all things that come to you at different times in your life. Like, we didn't make all of these changes overnight, you know, the things we learned, Like, yeah, the one that I think I learned was like master bedroom that came with the Black Lives Matter movement, and I learned that master bedroom has like racist connotations to it. And I think we'll talk about this later, but that was one where I was like, oh my gosh, that's an easy fix.

14:37 I just say primary, you know. So, But that came one time, and the unsheltered community came out a different time. So I will quit blabbing and that we're all still like students. We're all listening. We're faily talking about. Love it, love it. It definitely takes. It shows that there's a person more than just that one circumstance of their life. That's what I love about taking away those labels because that's one aspect of their life. It doesn't define who they are, So we should not be doing that. Okay, So I'd love to talk about how it's important to respect everyone in the case that you're speaking about, not just the victims.

15:28 Can you guys talk a little bit about that. John and I. John, he's in the audience tonight, he's my co host. We had a case recently that we covered where a young woman was murdered by her boyfriend. The woman's name was Maureen, her boyfriend's name was Chris. Chris was convicted of her murder and sentenced to I believe it was twenty twenty to life, but still eligible to purparole. And he was I think about twenty one years old when he was sentenced, and just recently so. This murder happened many years ago. He ended up dying in prison under suspicious circumstances where it appeared, especially to his mother, that the Department of Corrections was covering up what actually happened to him. So, in telling the story, even though we see Chris as someone who committed this horrific crime, John and I chose our words very carefully because we understood that in some ways Chris himself was a victim, a victim of a system, of a violent system, and he himself was likely murdered, possibly by the people who were in charge of the prison in some way, so we did not. We wanted to understand that for her, his mother, an innocent person in all of this on some level, that she could suffer if she heard us label her son still her son. We're all the three of us are moms, you know, as you know, as being.

16:56 Even though I might want to call him names, I might not have a lot of respect for him, I have respect for her, and I want to not put my anger out there where she might hear it, because she's mourning the loss of her son, and I think that's important. I don't know what John's staying in the chat. Don't want to say, oh, he's telling us about how oh yeah. In the marketing world, they used to say things like blacklisted and but now it's blocklisted. And this one is so crazy to me, And I'm just gonna go ahead and say it because I don't think people who watch that will be able to see the chat.

17:39 But and this is so crazy to me. In like the IT world, they used to have terms called master and slave databases. At what point ever was that Okay, I'm literally crazy, But now the call it primary and backup or secondary, which those were words back when they named the original names. So I don't understand that, but again, this is these are his examples. Look like how important language can be, and I mean, and how important it is to incorporate purpose changes. Yeah, and be willing to I mean, for we're talking about an industry, an entire industry that really should be taking a look at themselves too and saying like why do we have this? And can we just get rid of it? And just like working towards that. I think that's like a big that can be a big ask, but hopefully there's they're looking at that, and you know they're not just the company John works for, but all companies are to get a look at that, because that's it's it's so offensive and it never should have happened in the first place. So it's interesting that John brought it up.

18:55 My husband worked in it, and he has used those words in a much screen scale with that I can't comprehend because I'm not smart enough to know it. But he has mentioned those same things, and I've never until just now, like I just had that aha moment of oh my gosh, that is a thing. Why have they not changed the name of that? Because my my world didn't revolve around that. It wasn't something I used daily, so it's interesting to have those aha moments. Yeah, definitely, And I wanted to go back to Sean's point about respecting everyone. I know it can be really hard to want to respect you know, and you know, a murderer or something like that, but again, it's just important because their families are listening, and if their families were involved, you know they're they're hurting too. And also, for example, if you're working on a case and you don't and the person who is the killer was let's just say, a trans person, if you choose not to respect the fact that they're a trans person, then you're kind of you're offending a whole group of people and instead of just the person who you think doesn't deserve your respect. But it's like a grander scale of things.

20:21 I don't think I'm able to put this into words very well, but basically it's like, it's not just that one person that you're attacking and being negative about. It's everyone. And so that's why we just have a blanket rule when we're working to just be respectful to everyone, and then you're being then yeah, you're being respectful to everyone. So anyway, I don't begun wording that. Well, but no, but you're doing great, Yeah, you're doing great. Would you're not? Just because this person had made poor decisions and did these horrible actions doesn't mean you have to be negative about that person. You could easily harm a entire subset of people that you didn't mean to by putting this person down because they have they're transgendered, or maybe they have a specific character trait, maybe they have brown hair.

21:13 Who knows, you could easily harm someone unintentionally just by putting down the perpetrator. Yeah, definitely. Now I'm all for you know, you can, you know, be rude, like say rude things about their actions, what they did, but when it comes to you know, who they are, who they identify as, or any of those things, it's just not appropriate. So I guess that. I mean, that's my take on it. All right, let's talk about using trauma informed language. When would you use this, how would you use it? And why is it important? Uh? This, this anecdote that I've shared, I shared on them panel is partly what inspired me to approach you all to put it together because where I was working at the time for a domestic Violence Agency, we were all working on just cleaning up our language and get trying to get rid of all the violent idioms that we use every day, because you just never know who you're talking to and it just might not be appropriate and it could be traumatizing.

22:23 So like things like hold her feet to the fire, or I'll take a stab at it, or like I wish you would just kill me. I'll shoot you an email. Yeah, I'll shoot you an email like things like that, because we just have so many expressions and if you think about them, or you like kind of turn your ears on and you're like ready for them, you'll see them come up all the time. And we just as an agency kind of challenged ourselves to kind of stop using that language as much because it is it's violent. When it doesn't, it's just inappropriate. You're talking to someone who may have experience something violent, and it's just not the kind of environment you want to set as like a baseline where you're just kind of using these you know, you know, do you don't have to hold a gun to my head kind of expressions. It's it's really interesting how many exist in our just our American idioms. I think called the dams. I think, so expressions I think.

23:22 I also, it's a great one, Whitney, Yeah, that's a great one. I think your point to you never know who you're talking to is really important, and that's kind of how I try to approach when I've I tried tried to remove those things from my vocabulary because again, you never know who you're talking to. And then also, I know a lot of us talk to families of you know, people who have gone through tragic situations, and you would never want to slip up and say those things to them. And so I think if you can just remember too not use those things, you'll just be better safe than sorry. And I you know, I would just really hate if I said, you know, to a family member like all right, I'll shoot you an email, and then I remember, like, oh my gosh, their loved one was killed with a gun. And then you're like, why did I say that, you know, And so it's just really important you try and keep the again, just keep them keep being mindful is the most important thing. Absolutely, absolutely so.

24:34 One of the biggest things that I have learned Melissa and I have learned while while going through this is when we've talked to family members. We try not to say your loved one's case because it feels cold. It puts them in a box or a folder. It's it's there's no emotion there and it's not personal personal at all. You want to say, I would love to hear. Your loved one's story, we of course always talk about that person first language. Again, we want to humanize these people, not minimize them to some stacks of paper or a dusty box in the corner of a police station. That's that's what they're dealing with lots of time. So making sure you don't say case, talk about their story and it's just it's warmer.

25:26 Yeah, I completely agree. I'll say something like, can I help spread awareness of your loved one story again, because case does feel so cold and it just Yeah, when you're working one on one with the families, you realize that it's more than a case to them. You know, it's their life, it's their story too, it's their journey, it's everything. And and really, like you said, of reducing it down to like a case file, but it's not an you know, it's not okay. This is also not something we had talked about before, but it's something that you actually taught me, Haley, Listen when they talk, because some family members speak in the present tense. They'll say, my loved one is and my loved one as opposed to my loved one was. So see getting to their level, seeing them where they're at, and making sure you're using that same tense because that's important to them too. They don't want to talk about their loved ones in past tense. Don't talk about them and their loved one in past tense. And that's one that has been really difficult for me to really pay close attention to because Melissa and I only work with unsolved cases. Most times ours are older cases, so it's easy for us to go to that past tense and talk in that past tense. So that's one that I try to really pay attention to as well.

26:51 Yeah, I think that's really important, and I try to do that. I won't find myself slipping up, you know, here or there, but I try to just pay attention to what they say. You know, like if I'm working on a case where the loved one is missing but the family believes that they're murdered, you know, I might include like yesterday was National Day for remembering murder victims. And I included a couple people on there who are technically still missing, but their families know that they were murder victims, and so I feel like that's okay because that's how the family feels. But if a family feels like that loved one is still out there alive, I would never do that, you know. So it's just paying attention to what families say, and also going back to what we talked about earlier with people first language. If you are working with someone and they do call themselves the schizophrenic or they call themselves a drug addict, you know, I think it's okay to use those words, but let people know like this is how they refer to themselves, or you could make a look. I know, Melissa, you talked about this. You put a disclaimer, you know, because you Melissa and Whitney. If you haven't listened to a podcasts, they include audio from interviews in there, and so they'll put a little disclaimer that's like, this is how I'm going to refer to the person because this is respectful, but you'll hear them refer to it this way or

28:24 something like that. So I think just really paying attention now people talk about themselves or their loved ones and then kind of go from there. Is okay, too, agreed? So are there any other negative words that we should all avoid or try to avoid using. I let's break out the list. Nerve of the list. I try to stay away from things from like sensational phrases that would be like brutal murder or horrific crime. I try to stay away from those and kind of use neutral terms by just saying like the homicide or the crime. And this just helps maintain a focus on the facts of the case and not sensationalizing them. Because isn't every murder pretty. It's brutal and it's horrific, you know, So I don't think we need those little disclaimers on there. And also it just kind of feels gross, like in my mind. Whenever I'm working on an episode, I try to think, if the victims' parents were listening to this, what would they think?

29:38 What would they would that be upsetting to them? You know, would they like to hear those words being used to describe their loved ones death. So I just try to stay away from that. That's just one example. I'll let other people provide them too. I was thinking about suicide. How we've worked to stop saying the person committed suicide and we'd rather say they died by suicide, because when you put commit in front of it, it's like we say you committed a crime, you committed an assault. It sounds as if what they did was criminal, and that can be pretty painful for people to hear and think about too. So that was one that I thought of.

30:20 Something you said made me remember that one. It's being something that we've worked on too. And here's an example. I've not heard a lot. I have heard someone say death by suicide, but I've also heard saying completed suicide as opposed to committed. Those are two other things. This is a prime example of when you don't know, you google, because I wouldn't know which way to properly say that, so I would google that to be honest, to make sure that I am providing proper language. One that Hayley has said in the past, as she said at TCPF, was dumped dumping up body. It's very negative, it's very cold, it's very disturbing and sensationalized. You could say her body was left here or found here. You do not have to say dumped or a dead end street or the case has come to a dead end.

31:17 It's too visual. It doesn't have to be that visual. Yeah, I really hate dumped or disposed. It just feels so grass than like the person didn't matter. And I know that they clearly didn't matter to the person I killed them, But they matter to the people, their loved ones. And I wouldn't want my loved ones to be talked about like that. They're not trash, could be you know, thrown out. So yeah, just those tiny little changes can really make a difference. Let's talk about the history of certain phrases and how they could have racist or otherwise harmful beginnings. This was a hot topic at our Panol we did. Everyone was chiming in with various ones they had heard, So, yeah, what do you guys have, What do you know about any of these?

32:16 Haley kind of already touched on this a little bit with the master bedroom versus primary bedroom. That's a pretty tame one that we have heard from the audience and a pretty common one that people have discussed. Ones that I learned when we discussed this. Grandfathered in is a new is one that I had not known before this year. Again, the blacklist versus White List stakeholders Peanut Gallery. I feel like we had a list of fifteen twenty thirty just from the audience alone. How many. Seriouto much everything we say is rooted in racing. Yeah, I wish I could remember all the details, but I know the one that I learned, like basically the night before the panel was cakewalk. That cakewalk was some kind of performance that enslaved people would be asked to perform for their slavers. So, you know, we probably shouldn't use that to be mean, like a phrase like something that's really easy it's going to be a total cakewalk is probably not something we should say anymore. We should think about that one. But some of that stuff is just so baked into our history and our language it's really hard to let it go. But it's like we were saying, you know, just always educating yourself and thinking about where some of this stuff comes from. Yeah. I even growing up, we had like school carnivals and we would do literal cakewalks.

33:45 So I just, you know, I looked up a few because I wanted to add some that we hadn't talked about before. One that I found really interesting was roll up them. This phrase is sometimes linked to an old myth that a man could legally like hit his wife with a stick no thicker than his them, and that's horrible, and it was I was reading about the history about it before that I hope I don't. But well, there I go saying some of this proof that I'm not perfect.

34:30 I saw it tonight. I hope I don't mess this up. But basically it has been and it was a statement that went like far far back, but in the seventies or eighties, an article said that like this was a real law, that men could hit their wives with a stick that was no thicker than their thumb. And then for like decades, domestic violence advocates have had to like try and tell people that that's not a real law and it's just crazy. And then the other one that I don't know why I never thought about this before ever, And I feel like my dad said this all the time growing up, but was like long time, no cea and or no can do. And these phrases have origins and the way that indigenous and Chinese people's English was mocked in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. So they were used of a way to mimic in belittle non native Borish speakers, and once you learn on it makes sense. Right. Yeah, But I am so embarrassed because when I see someone, I would say like, long time, no sea. But now I am going to try and not see that anymore. Wow.

35:54 Wow, Wow, that's a new one. I had not I did not know that wow either. Okay, okay, everyone take notes? Right, Oh now where were we? Let's see? So, are there any other phrases or anything like that that you guys can think about or that you guys can think of that we. Should be talking about it? Kind of miss any We sometimes talk about trailer park not well, yes, that there's really no need to describe where someone lives as being like a trailer park or that they live in a mobile home because similar to like other those some of those words we talked about, like schizophrenica, it gives you a picture in your head about what this person's life is like. And maybe that's not that's not fair, that's burning them because we have so many stereotypes about about things like that, or the using the word ghetto. We we don't want to use that word, which just straight up say exactly where they did live and what part of town. You know. I'm always a big proponent for just saying more, don't apply the label, just say what you're trying to say instead of the label. You know, you don't have to call someone an alcoholic. You can say their families observed them hiding bottles of liquor around their house, or what, you know, the things that might cause someone to reach that conclusion without labeling someone. So I might say that they lived in you know, in

37:27 you know, the southeast part of town, or in the older part of town. I might say that, but I wouldn't want to label their life by saying they lived in the ghetto. I would never say that. We use a lot of geographical description as well, like you said the south western corner of the town, or north of a major highway that runs through the town, just to kind of give a general idea, but also pulling in statistics from the area of Okay, these streets or this neighborhood experienced a ten percent higher level of cribery. That's a statistic. That's a fact. That's not labeling, and that's not stereotyping. It's easy to describe a neighborhood.

38:08 With those facts, yeah, rather than like labeling it in a certain way that people think, oh, I think I know what it looks like. Life looks like there, we can actually tell them what life might look like there. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Some that I try not to use would be like OCD or bipolar or you know, oh they're crazy, or oh they're psycho or oh there was I don't hear this one as much, but like schizo. But using these mental health terms to describe like everyday behavior is like cumbiadic, I'm so OCD about my desk. That really minimizes the experience of people who are actually diagnosed with you know, OCD or diagnosis schizophrenia or bipolar. You know, being like, oh, you're so bipolar when their mood shifts. You know, like that's just offensive to people who actually do live with those conditions. When again, you're applying those you know, assumptions that you have about bipolar people or people who are diagnosed with bipolar, you're you know, putting all of those things on them, and not every person who has you know, who has been diagnosed with bipolar has like major you know mood swings like that, and it doesn't work the way that people are trying to apply and things like that, So it's just better to use different words, like Sean

39:38 was saying, like, just you just describe them the way that you would, don't use some sort of term, you know, to define them. Like you instead of saying, I'm so OCD about my desk, you could say like I'm detail oriented or I'm particular because just because you like your desk to be organized, because I mean, you're OCD. And we don't want to be reinforcing those stereotypes that you're talking about by described by almost like diagnosing people with our words, by labeling them in those ways. Yeah, Zach, I think it also goes back to you saying, like, instead of calling somebody an alcoholic, you know, you can just describe the behaviors that they were having, because unless you're you know, a psychiatrist or a psychologist, like you probably should be saying those things unless you know, you're like this person was diagnosed and you read in an article and it's important to the story then included.

40:35 But yeah, just like you said, prostitute versus sex worker, you know, there's also you know, illegal immigrants. That's an undocumented migrant. There's there's different ways to say things. I also think it's important to think about how the verb, the worded wordage has changed. For instance, we no longer use child pornography because pornography is a word that is now the connotation behind pornography is that it was willingly given. In most cases, children can't do that, so now that's called child sex abuse material. Hopefully this doesn't affect your website, Haley, I didn't think about that before I started talking about this topic. Hopefully they won't bring you on that.

41:19 No, it's important one to bring up. I feel like that is a new one that people are trying to to change, and I think it is really important because, like you said, they're not giving consent, they are being abused, and that needs to be brought up. Precisely. The same goes for victim versus survivor. Sean, this is one that you talked about a domestic violence victim as opposed to a survivor of domestic violence. Those are two very could be the same thing, but two very different ways to say it. One's more powerful or more empowering, more positive, and one is very stereotypical, very label based, but we didn't We don't really have time to go into like victim blaming, but just being a victim is something that also comes with a lot of judgment for a lot of people.

42:19 So yeah, in all instances, it's great to be able to avoid using that word to label someone. Yeah, we did them last year. Our first weaponar for True Crime podcast training was with on domestic violence and it was through the y w c A and they talked about how there's been a shift towards saying victim, survivors or just survivors, but also they said to listen to what people refer to themselves as that you could use that. But I think you were telling of Sean that there's also some people don't even like to say domestic violence. Some people like to say is interpersonal Yeah, yeah, interpersonal violence or relationship violence or dating violence to be more specific, because I think the word domestic, I mean, in the laws where I live, it kind of encompasses any violence that happens between any family members, so that could be child parent or you know, adult parent, older adult, like just anything that could happen within a family unit or how And I think most of the time when I say domestic violence, I'm thinking about two people in like a romantic relationship, and so it for some people, it really muddies the waters. And it's probably better to say interpersonal violence or dating violence if they're not married and they're just dating. So it's it's again. I think it's just thinking about what the effect is of what you're saying. Right,

43:52 So it's kind of like if I think the audience I'm talking to might be confused by me using that phrase, and maybe I won't use that phrase. But I think I almost feel like we might have missed our window in changing the name, even though there are plenty of agencies that we'll still say IPv instead of DV. Yeah, so do you think it's okay to still use DV or do you think we should be making this with I think it's okay to still to still use it. I think most of us know what it means, and I don't think there's any negative connotation that comes to it. It just might be too big of an umbrella term. But we usually if we're talking about child abuse or elder abuse, we usually use those phrases, you know, child abuse, neglect, or we say elder abuse or elder neglects. So I think we all we commonly draw those distinctions, and I might call it domestic violence, even if they don't live under the same roof. They're just dating. But when you're taught, when you're describing, again, describing rather than labeling what the situation is with the people, then you can make sure you're clear and what you're saying. But I don't I don't see calling something domestic. Maybe it's less precise, but it's not as insulting to anyone. I think to call it that might be jarring for some people. They might not want to accept that that's what we would label what they've gone through. So again, if you're in that situation, it's always to follow that person's lead with what they want to talk about with their situation, how they describe themselves and what they went through. Yeah, again, just goes

45:24 back to just paying attention to how people talk about themselves and you know, kind of taking that into mind. All right, for my last major question, let's talk about how to keep up with the ever evolving language changes. Because this is a lot of information and given a year or two from now, this couldn't be completely wrong. So there are lots of changes are being made. Hayley, I know you address this in your training program, So can you start us off what can we do to keep up with it? Yeah? So one, there's a lot of different ways you can keep this. One thing that I suggest is looking up style guides that's focused on specific topics. For example, in a chat, if you're paying attention, Jemma said that she recently read the Glad Guide and that talks about LGBTQ plus, you know, uh, guides on how to use that language when you're talking about people in that community.

46:31 So basically, if you're focusing on a very specific topic and you don't know the right language to use, you could go view a guide and you can usually just google those, you know, like it's Google is your friend. You don't have to get it right every you know, you could just say something like LGBTQ plus style guide or you know, media guide or something like that. Now, if you only have one or two things that you're unsure about, you could just do a quick Google search. Like you could say, what's the proper term or in certain word or phrase today, For example, we don't say like mentally handicapped anymore, that's not correct. We would say like intellectually disabled. So if I didn't know what that was, I would look up, like, what's the proper term for mentally handicapped? Today? You know, it's okay to put those things in there and just ask because how elseo you got to learn? And you'll usually find some answers there.

47:37 But if you're working on a project that has just a bunch of different things that you need to consider, and the style guide is aren't working for you, and you're really nervous about not getting it right, you can always hire a content advisor and they can help you make sure that your language is accurate and respectful. But in the end, it's all about just learning to a apt and being willing to make changes. Yeah, so Google, I think in the end the moral of this whole video that Google is your friend, also your peers. Ask your peers. I know we Melissa and are part of probably I don't know fifteen different group messages where we have put in there. Hey, we're working on a case. This is the scenario. How would y'all phrase it? Is this correct?

48:27 Am I doing anything wrong? Because we have a wide variety of peers that have been in this industry a lot longer than us, who may have different careers, Like Sean is well versed in the interpersonal violence now, and I have lots of questions about that because I don't know. That's not my skill set. So just being willing to ask the questions also is important. Yeah, absolutely, And I am in my little bucket, but I am lucky to have peers that have been doing this for much longer and have a lot of experience. So it's always great to just reach out to someone and just say, am I am I on the right track here? Or I completely agree.

49:18 I've even messaged Hayley questions about my kids' homework when I'm not quite sure what they should be writing in an essay, so it help. Yeah, all right, awesome, Okay, so let's go ahead and hold the Q and A. So please leave your questions about really anything appropriate in the chat while you're typing those out with me. Is going to share an amazing handout that she made. If you're at TCPS, surprise, it's the same fund is similar.

50:00 Why so this is kind of all the topics we kind of discussed just a little bit of this and that to kind of give just a little bit of example to show kind of what we're talking about. I love it, And you're gonna share a link right with everyone? Yes, yes, so you can see it here. The link is here. No questions. Sometimes we don't have questions, and that's okay. But if you have questions, definitely put them in the chat let us know, or if you're too shy, you can always reach out after. Yeah, I'm just looking through the comments here. Some things that people have said that we should avoid, saying.

50:53 White trash definitely, and wrong side of the tracks absolutely, smoking gun. Yeah, so there's a lot in there. It's just again just making those tiny changes as you go, as you learn is super important. Here is a question. Is there ever a time that being vague in our descriptions disrespectful to a victim's memory or family? I I don't think so, as long as you're just trying to be respectful. Sometimes you may want to not bring up certain things about a victim because you don't want people to judge them. For example, if I was working on a case where the victim was a sex worker, but they weren't killed, they didn't have their murder, didn't have anything to do with them being a sex worker.

52:00 I probably wouldn't bring that up, not because I think there's anything wrong with being a sex worker. I'm absolutely okay with that. And if I was listening, I wouldn't judge the victim, but there are people out there who would, so I would just try to I'd be vague about that, just because I'm trying to protect anyone thinking badly about the victim, because again, my whole thought process behind the podcast is that I want people to care about the victim when they leave, and unfortunately not everyone is, you know, not everyone is going to not think badly about the victim. So I think it's okay, what do you guys think about that?

52:41 So I think if it's if it's not pertinent to the case, just like you were saying, if it's not vital information that has to do with what happened to this person, it's definitely best to leave it out. There's no need to say anything that you're right might get people judges, because you would be surprised that listen to EEP in these true crime podcasts that will judge the victim probably just as harshly as they do the perpetrator. And so anytime that we can shine a spotlight on everything good that that person did, it's I think it's much better. We also always let our families listen to the episodes before they go live, so if they didn't like any aspect of it, we could definitely change it prior to it going live, which kind of helps, but it's also very it's still nerve wracking when the family listens.

53:34 Wow. I think the only risk might be in a missing person's or unsolved where if you think you yourself make a judgment call that you think a certain detail about a person's life is not relevant, then maybe leaving that detail out could actually be relevant to how they disappear, because you're like, oh, I don't want to describe them as being part of the unhoused community, because I really don't. I really think people might judge them for that. But that might actually be a lead for someone, or lead someone to remember that they saw them or encounter them at some point. So I guess that would only be like the risk. I don't think it would be disrespectful to the family. But if your goal would be to generate leads about something, there might be certain facts that you have to kind of include even if you're a little nervous about doing that or you're concerned. I always think that's the tricky one. Yeah, I think with unsolved you should include as much as you find, just because you never know what might, you know, cause someone to remember something important. So if it was an unresolved case, then I definitely would include all of that. But then again, using that person first language and trauma and form language like, you can't always not include that information. Sometimes you do have to bring it up, but then you do it respectfully and you don't focus on it, and you just continue on. Because if the victim was a sex worker, that was just their profession. They had everything else about them that you can still talk about. You don't need

55:05 to focus on that part percisely. So yeah, all right, I'll give my hosting duties a back over to Haley all the right. Thank you so much for hosting Malasa, and thank you to Sean and Whitney for being here with me tonight. Is there anything else that you all I would like to talk about before we leave, I'll just mention that October is Domestic Violence Awareness month. Speaking of domestic violence, and I know that Haley and Whitney and Lista can talk a little bit about the projects they're doing, but our podcast will be doing a whole month of special episodes, having some feed drops from our partner nonprofit or not nonprofits my gosh partner podcasts to talk about different cases.

56:04 So we're I think we're going to be doing ten episodes next month, so it's going to be really exciting. So I just want to, you know, kind of share that that if you're interested in these kinds of cases, like I hope you'll follow us and get to hear some of these really moving stories and learn more about domestic violence during this month. And it's since in Survivors and you're on every podcast every place. You can find us everywhere in all our social media since and Survivors at Sins and Survivors. Yeah, and thanks for having me, Haley, Yeah, thank you. This is all your idea and I appreciate it so much. Whitney and Melissa, what do you have going on? Not much for not planning a festival or not a vessel conference conference.

56:56 Yeah, so we are in the keep saying the preliminary stages, but we're well past the preliminary stages. We've been working on this for over a year. At this point, we are. Planning Advocacy con which is a conference like no other. It's not your typical crime conference. We are putting family members in the same room as nonprofits resources, PIS ethical content creators, other family members to know that they're not going through this alone and giving them all the tools that we can possibly think of for them to help advance their loved one stories. It's us along with Eric Carter Londin and it'll be in March twenty eight, March twenty eight through thirtieth of next year in Indianapolis.

57:45 Yes, I'm really looking forward to it all right. Well, Melissa Whitney and I have been working on a project for Domestic Violence Awareness Month. You'll be able to see more about that on our social medias on October first, But basically, we are going to be hosting a drive where we are going to be donating essential items to domestic violent shelters around the country. So we're just encouraging everyone to get involved and donate bags in their own areas, and we have everything already figured out for you, what goes in the bag, where to buy it, all those things, so you'll be able to find more information about that on October first on our social media's and we're really looking forward to that and hoping to get as many people involved as possible. And we worked really hard on that.

58:50 And one thing I never even thought about to put in the bags, which I think Whitney came up with, either Whitney or Melissa, but chargers. So a lot of the time domestic violence survivors or victims. I'm victim survivors. They leave their homes with nothing, literally nothing, and so these bags provide essentials to them, you know, body wash, shampoo, conditioner, a brush, socks. So we're really excited about this project and I can't wait for people to get involved. I just want to thank everyone again, Sean Whitney, Melissa and our audience. Thank you so much for being here. And you can stay up to date on our next webinar by following True Crime Podcast Training on social media. But until Ben, I'll see you later. Thank you, I thank you.

59:59 Thanks for listening. Visit sinspod dot co slash subscribe for exclusive bonus content and to listen ad free. Remember to like and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and threads at sins and Survivors. If you're enjoying the podcast, please leave us a review on your podcast platform of choice. You can contact us at questions at sins andsurvivors dot com. If you are someone you know as affected by domestic violence or needs support, please reach out to local resources or the National Domestic Violence Hotline. A list of resources is available on our website, Sins and Survivors dot com. Sins and Survivors, a Las Vegas true crime podcast, is research, written and produced by your hosts Sean and John. The information shared in this podcast is accurate at the time of recording. If you have questions, concerns, or corrections, please email us. Links to source material for this episode can be found on our website, Sinsensurvivors dot com.

1:00:54 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast creators, hosts, and their guests. All individuals are innocent until proven guilty. This content does not constitute legal advice. Listeners are encouraged to consult with legal professionals for guidance.